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EricE
Old 07-22-2005, 11:28 PM     Post subject: OOP betting #1 (permalink)  
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EricE
I have been doing this for a while and would like to hear what you think about it.
If I am out of position and have a decent hand I will check any street that is a scare card for me. If someone bets that round I can still raise that round if I don’t respect the raise amount. If everyone checks then I can bet out the next street the same bet I would have thrown on the previous street (assuming no scare card). This allows me to see who hits and gives me info on their hands I might not have otherwise have had if I had bet and just gotten callers. Of course, this means if I win it, I win a smaller pot but that is certainly better than loosing any size pot.


Eg. I hold Qx and the flop comes KQ5. I would check that flop looking to see if someone bets and try and put them on Q or K. The alternative is to bet but too often the K would just call my bet and I would gain no info that he had a K.

Eg. I again hold Qx and the flop comes Q73 I would bet out unless I didn’t trust my kicker. If I didn’t trust my kicker I would want to know if someone else hit the Q so I would check.

This play is mostly reserved for the BB or SB where I would come in for free/cheap.
What are the pitfalls in this plan? It has been working but if there are problems with it I haven’t considered, I’d like to hear them. Maybe this is standard?


Thanks in advance.
Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
 
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Seasider
Old 07-23-2005, 03:21 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Sounds solid enough. Of course you have to be aware you are letting everyone draw for free, but then again second pair is never a hand you are going to win huge amounts on. In the absence of a read on KQ5 board if turn is mucky and you bet you will probably be looking for calls or folds, any action and you are in a tight spot, maby a K or some pair that hit its set! Also I sometimes play Kx suited to mix it up and may play it very cautious but call a bet like this on turn, caus looks like someone who wanted to see what else was out there! If you face a flat call to river and have to go first again what do you do check and fold?

This considered why not get slightly aggro on flop? You may as well see if you are folding it or not before ppl can draw at you. If someone calls check and fold unless you improve and if someone bets back at you or lots of flat callers its time to get out of dodge. Also throwing out the odd 1/2 pot sized bet then folding keeps people guessing (if they are paying attention) in my opinion.

I play 5 max tables tho where there are less cards out there to start with.
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Xanadu
Old 07-23-2005, 04:46 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Eric, I think the answer here, as it often is in poker is 'it depends'.
If you were a preflop raiser, standard play is to throw out a continuation bet from EP whether you improve or not. This bet should be enough to get weak draws to fold ... anywhere from 1/2 pot to pot sized depending on the table and how many people saw the flop. If you were not the raiser, but get a piece of the flop less than top pair good kicker, it is standard to make a probe bet around 1/2 the pot to see where you are at. You get more information from a bet than a check. In either case, a call usually indicates some strength or a good draw. If faced with a decent sized raise, you can fold. If called, you want to tend to check the turn unimproved.
The more people in the hand, the less often you want to make a continuation or probe bet. This is because the chances are greater that someone hit the flop or hit it better than you. These 'information bets' work best when facing 1 or 2 other players.

All that being said, it may not be very useful at low limits. If you have lots of people seeing the flop, or lots of people that will call with bad draws, your continuation and probe bets will not give you as much information, and a check may be better. And if no one ever folds to these bets, you probably should only be betting for value on the flop.
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Miffed22001
Old 07-24-2005, 06:02 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I play 6max tables so not sure how helpfull this will be.
I like to play what are not really hands like K8 off and Q8 off at these tables because if you can see a flop for cheap you have a hand that can give you top pair.
I keep it simple like this.
Dont play them from ep, too risky.
Mp and definatly lp, get in the pot if its unrasied.
Never play with anything less than an 8 kicker. Safety margin. (maybe a seven if suited but be very careful)
Your aiming to take down the pot at the flop, thus bet the pot from any position. This looks like aggressive play and when i do it it gets respected. If its a fairly safe flop (no draws) and then draw cards come on the turn bet the pot again. I see very few hands like this go to the river, a turn pot bet looks very aggressive at the tables i play and ill know by then if im beat coz the reraisers like to strike at this point. If it gets to showdown, which is rare im normally winning if there are no river scare cards.
I think that this sort of play works for the simple fact its like stealing the blinds in tourney play. You are using marginal hands to win the blinds (thats all thats in the pot post flop) and it keeps your stack moving upwards slowly.
As to betting second pair.
If your going to do this you need position. If its checked round to you and your either last or second last to act then bet the pot. I see too many people only betting small here which advertises their hand as either weak or a draw, afterall if theyre looking for info and you raise to a pot bet theyve got all the info they need (even if it is false)
Essentailly dont make the bet from ep unles your convinced you can outplay your opponent on the turn and river and then dont do it every time its too predictable and someone will start being a policeman, if it gets checked round to a free turn card then pot bet it then. Again, i think the big hands come out raisng here and you wont get stung too often.
Just remeber you're trying to take down a smll pot post flop, you dont really want to see a showdown in either case but dont overbet either thats often an advertisement of second pair.
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