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pat3392
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03-20-2010, 08:29 AM
Post subject: Only move when have 13 blinds or under is to push? All others are losing moves?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 125
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I have read this and was wondering if you guys can show me the math/reasoning why this is true
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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knock yourself out , while you still can.
wait till spoon gets here maN.
WHEN HE SEES YOU have no range , your gonna feel strange.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celtic123
knock yourself out , while you still can.
wait till spoon gets here maN.
WHEN HE SEES YOU have no range , your gonna feel strange.
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Well obviously you would still have a range but i think op means that if you are gonna raise with 13 blinds you might as well shove because you are committed anyway. Raise folding would be a terrible mistake.
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rong
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
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Could you not argue that stop & go would sometimes be the optimal play? Say if hero is sb, and its folded to late position for a 4bb raise. Prob get to take down a 9 blind pot 65% of the time, & double up 15% of the time. ie 65% of time villain doesn't hit & folds to our shove, and 35% of the time he hits a hand or draw & calls and we win 15% of the 35%.
But really, just reload. I never used to until I was down to les than 50 blinds, now I have auto reload on, thanks to someone on here telling me what an idiot I was if not doing so.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.
Fucking. Retarded.
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rong
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
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Oooooohhh... check me, I'm a full house!  
Didn't realise that.
I hope noobs don't see that and assume I know what I'm talking about.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.
Fucking. Retarded.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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also with 13 blinds should our raises be 100 percent for value. I mean i don't ss but it seems like you wouldn't have much of a bluffing range being that short. If you are going to bluff why not shove?
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Isn't OP referring to tournament play , if he's playing cash games and at 13 blinds he's just a fish. Even then whether to push or fold is going to be dependant on how many more people are left to act,how close to the next level of blinds you are and how good/bad your cards are.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanAronG
Oooooohhh... check me, I'm a full house!
Didn't realise that.
I hope noobs don't see that and assume I know what I'm talking about. |
well i may not know what i'm talking about either but without doing a lot of math i think shoving is best because raise folding is a huge leak but i could be wrong on that. Perhaps a ss player can chime in. Also if we are raising for value i like geting it all in pf better then a stop and go. Also if we do an s&g we give villain a chance to get a way.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_MM
Isn't OP referring to tournament play , if he's playing cash games and at 13 blinds he's just a fish. Even then whether to push or fold is going to be dependant on how many more people are left to act,how close to the next level of blinds you are and how good/bad your cards are.
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Well i assume op means that you should just shove if you are gonna raise and not that you should shove 100 percent of hands or atleast i hope not Although i do run into people that play that way. Just yesterday i sit down at an nl table and some dude shoved pf or on the flop 6 str8 hands. He had around 100xbb. Then i get qq and he open shoves i call and win and now he only has like cents at the table. The funny thing was after that he started playing really tight.
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rong
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
Well i assume op means that you should just shove if you are gonna raise and not that you should shove 100 percent of hands or atleast i hope not Although i do run into people that play that way. Just yesterday i sit down at an nl table and some dude shoved pf or on the flop 6 str8 hands. He had around 100xbb. Then i get qq and he open shoves i call and win and now he only has like cents at the table. The funny thing was after that he started playing really tight.
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God bless 'em
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.
Fucking. Retarded.
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pat3392
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 125
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What about calling a hand? Why cannot I not to do that? Math please, if you can
What if the players are going to call an all-in push about the same as a 2.5 blind raise, and you're at 10-13 blinds.
What if you know that a player will either fold to your 2.5 blind raise, or push if he has a decent hand, as in you have this read on him? The other night I realised this player was pushing good hands in this situation, and folded most other times. Saved me from busting when he pushed me all in with his AQ, the only time he did push after about 6 steals. He called once, but an all in continuation bet scared him off; this continuation bet would work approximately 2/3s of the time, since they only hit that often on the flop, with exceptions to pockets or particuarly high cards/draws. So, if they did call I would still steal most of the time, with more in the pot.
Unless you can prove otherwise, it seems that push-fold mode is more for when up against players who actually know what they are doing....
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pat3392
What about calling a hand? Why cannot I not to do that? Math please, if you can
What if the players are going to call an all-in push about the same as a 2.5 blind raise, and you're at 10-13 blinds.
What if you know that a player will either fold to your 2.5 blind raise, or push if he has a decent hand, as in you have this read on him? The other night I realised this player was pushing good hands in this situation, and folded most other times. Saved me from busting when he pushed me all in with his AQ, the only time he did push after about 6 steals. He called once, but an all in continuation bet scared him off; this continuation bet would work approximately 2/3s of the time, since they only hit that often on the flop, with exceptions to pockets or particuarly high cards/draws. So, if they did call I would still steal most of the time, with more in the pot.
Unless you can prove otherwise, it seems that push-fold mode is more for when up against players who actually know what they are doing....
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well let me see if i'm str8 on what you are saying. You would raise then c-bet the flop and people would fold? Well let me just say they suck. They should of been re raising you with hands that are +ev versus your raising range. Frankly you are much to short for them to just call.
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rong
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Beachside
Posts: 1,196
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^^^^^^^^^^^This.
I shove over if villan has less than 40 blinds and I think it'll be +ev.
I got fed up with short stacks raising pre with the intention of using their fold euqity on flop, so I take away the opportunity and shove over quite a lot.
Good post about this on 2+2, there's a link someone on this forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
hey guys, if you ever make a snap call on the river when your opponent raises you're fucking retarded.
Fucking. Retarded.
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pat3392
What about calling a hand? Why cannot I not to do that? Math please, if you can
What if the players are going to call an all-in push about the same as a 2.5 blind raise, and you're at 10-13 blinds.
What if you know that a player will either fold to your 2.5 blind raise, or push if he has a decent hand, as in you have this read on him? The other night I realised this player was pushing good hands in this situation, and folded most other times. Saved me from busting when he pushed me all in with his AQ, the only time he did push after about 6 steals. He called once, but an all in continuation bet scared him off; this continuation bet would work approximately 2/3s of the time, since they only hit that often on the flop, with exceptions to pockets or particuarly high cards/draws. So, if they did call I would still steal most of the time, with more in the pot.
Unless you can prove otherwise, it seems that push-fold mode is more for when up against players who actually know what they are doing....
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what situation are you talking about here.
is it early in a SNG, late in a SNG,early in a MTT, late in a MTT or ring game. If you are calling a raise you're likely putting 3 bb in the pot , leaving 7-8 bb in the pot. The raiser will probably cbet 6bb leaving you with a choice of essentially committing to the hand or waving bye bye to the 1/4 of your stack you called with. You don't have a big enough stack to call as you will miss the flop 2/3 of the time ,have to fold to the cbet and then you are just giving your chiips way.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Quote:
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Only move when have 13 blinds or under is to push? All others are losing moves?
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I'm sure you can come up with at least one scenario where this is not true.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Am i the only one that's still not sure what structure op is playing? I would assume tournies or at least i hope so. If he is playing cash with 13 blinds my best advice would be diagf .
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pat3392
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 125
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mainly small multi table tourneys, usually around late game
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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{Locked}
Post some hands.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I considered unlocking this thread at OP's request, but I can't bring myself to do it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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