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Lukie

07-11-2008, 11:37 PM Post subject: Online timing tells

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I've been reading FTR for at least 3 years now and pretty much every topic relating to online poker has been discussed, some of them Ad nauseam. I've always felt that there were two exceptions to this:

1. True pot size manipulation. People generally seem to favor standardized bet sizes as opposed to really thinking and understanding how much to bet. This is a really far reaching subject though, and probably best left in one of the strategy forums.

2. Timing tells. These are very hard to qualify. In my experience, people are also very interested in these but there isn't a whole lot of information out there on them-- *because* they are so hard to qualify.

So, let's work on this. Here's one that I feel very strongly about, that has far greater implications than you would first think:

People make easy and trivial decisions quickly.

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Outlaw

07-12-2008, 03:51 AM

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I always get very wary when someone takes a long time to act after a scare card hits.. people think if they take a long time it will make us think they are unsure of their hand. Beware of the long pauses followed by a big bet/raise.

When people act fast they generally have air. Occasionally someone will insta check when they hit a set on the flop. On a dry board, I Cbet a bit less when someone does that insta check on the flop.

Taking a few extra seconds sometimes means second or third pair, or a draw they are calculating odds for.

ponyboy

07-12-2008, 04:11 AM

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I know that someone obviously having hit the automatic button for check or bet means generally means they have nothing.

The long pause personally for me means I'm making a hard decision whether or not to call/raise or fold. I'm checking pot odds and my notes on the player in question and trying to make a good decision, plus trying to figure out what hand to put them on.

d0zer

07-12-2008, 05:04 AM

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Timing tells are very player dependent I find. donks will be more honest with them generally, but sometimes multi-tabling regs get excited and blow their load too quick also.

Deanglow

07-12-2008, 07:32 AM

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I combat people having tells on me by doing something a bit unique. Balancing your timing is very important and I find that while regulars don't give up too much, the donks do. I take up the same amount of time with three different types of decisions.

Type 1, 1-3 seconds. Raising or 3betting preflop, calling preflop

Type 2, 4-10 seconds. 4bet preflop, most of postflop

Type 3, >10 seconds. turn and river raises, calling flop and turn raises, 5bet allin PF, checking/betting in 3bet/4bet pots on flop/turn, other major decisions

As for your opponents, it is often player specific but I find donks all have one tell:

snap-calling is weak. On dry boards it is almsot always a one pair type hand that can't stand much heat like 88 on J72 or A9 on K97. On wet boards fish loving snapping with draws. They want to know the next card as soon as possible to see if they hit. Its exciting. And lets be honest, snapcalling is just more manly. Its cool to snizzapfistpump 3 streets with 77 on 256-J-Q. If a fish takes his time and then raises, be scared.

Lukie

07-14-2008, 01:00 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

Agree completely about the insta check on the flop, esp when they call a raise oop and they are 'supposed' to check. I'll admit that I've been guilty of myself at times of doing this, and accidental or intentional, my range was definitely weighted much stronger than otherwise.

FlyingSaucy

07-14-2008, 02:17 AM

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As for playing the player - a long pause for a decision from a FTR member means they are making a video.

daven

07-29-2008, 11:00 AM Post subject: Re: Online timing tells

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

People make easy and trivial decisions quickly.

some associated thoughts:
timing tells are a dangerous illusion vs multi-tablers (10+tables)
these same players use the check-fold box too much
so the decisions that take time are? does this help with assigning ranges? I guess it does - I'm going to think about this more.

What do various categories of player consider to be easy and trivial decisions?

bigspenda73

08-09-2008, 04:39 PM

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insta-checks from players after cold-calling PF?

I tend to believe these are very polarized, either a lot of strength (omg check fast) or air (omg I have nothing).

insta-check-call or just insta-call. Typically a hand the player knew immediately was not worth a raise or a fold. This could differ from opponent to opponent but it's like 99 on a Q72 board or a weak TP type hand.

Poker Orifice

09-01-2008, 08:49 AM

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the 'quick flop call'.. very often on a draw. in mico buy-in coming from super weak player.. the 'long pause check'... "please don't bet,.. I'm pretending I might have something here!!!" (lol)
I personally prefer to play mtts and will usually play no more than two at a time (but do better by just playing one to be honest... I write books for notes though, have everyone's playing style noted, colour-coded, stats., betting patterns,..... you name it.. it's there). I tend to do the Chris Ferguson style most of the time... I take the same amount of time no matter what action I'm taking when my turn to act. Sometimes I may even draw it out a bit longer if it's a loose maniacal table,.. impatience seems to breed contempt and rash decision making in others.... perfect I say!!!
Most of the reading I do these days is psychology related when it comes to poker... always more to study as it seems endless and is a huge part of the game (why we do what we do, ...'i am my own worst enemy on the table'... etc.).
-into a loose aggress. player I will bet out in a way in hopes of inducing a quick raise (often w air I find) and then hang em with the rope I've given em.

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givememyleg

10-29-2008, 02:52 AM

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I think there is a lot of great info we can get from this thread and would like to continue the discussion. Keep 'em coming folks.

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XTR1000

10-29-2008, 09:25 AM

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This thread has potential.

People give away a ton of info with bet sizing and timing. I have several of notes on people who use the bet pot or 1/2 pot button for value and type in bets for bluffs and vice versa. Same with timing versus insta acting. In my experience its just hard to make general judgements, its player dependant. You have to watch your opponents closely and keep taking notes.

Things to look out for:

- Timing when raising/check-raising cbets and sizing (minraise vs typed bet)
- Riverbet sizing. Say a hand went down check/call, check/check and villian then quickly pots the river. He almost always tries to make up for missed value here.

I need a coffee and a shower, but Im getting back to this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

10-29-2008, 09:55 AM

#13 (permalink)

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I don't give up much by timing tells because I either make my decision instantly or I'm taking a while due to doing something at another table

so any "timing" tells I have might be allin decisions on another table

but I do use other people's timing tells
usually acting quickly is a polarized range

redpalo

10-29-2008, 12:20 PM

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Good thread.

Since I started multi-tabling I have discounted timing tells quite a bit, especially from people who seem to be solid players. Sometimes I'm watching an important hand and take too long to make an action at another table. IOPQ's comments seem to support the discount.

A twist to this is: Have you ever taken too long to make a bet you should have made quickly in order to send the right "tell", because you were watching another table? I did that once yesterday, I knew my bet would not have the right impact because i took too long to make it, so I just folded instead of bothering because the pot wasn't that big.

XTR1000

10-29-2008, 12:48 PM

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21/14/1.3 villian. My notes on him:

---PREFLOP---
LRR AA UTG
---POSTFLOP---
quickly minraises/mincheckraises draws, bluffs missed river close to pot vs passive line, vbets full pot

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($19.69)
UTG 1 ($29.48)
Hero ($94.00)
BTN ($66.45)
SB ($52.01)
BB ($50.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is CO

2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 2 folds, BB calls $1

Flop:

($3.25, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn:

($3.25, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.50, BB raises to $5, Hero calls $2.50

River:

($13.25, 2 players)
BB bets $9, Hero raises to $24, BB folds

Final Pot: $46.25

Hero wins $44.70 ( won $14.20 )
BB lost -$15.50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

Monty3038

10-29-2008, 01:04 PM

#16 (permalink)

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As a beginner and noob/donk I find myself falling into these timing tells also. One thing I have tried to do to combat them is I have stopped using the pre-action buttons except to fold my junk pre-flop OOP... I have also started watching the screen. If I let it flash my name box on PS 5 times on each hand before acting, that is a built in delay... often I'm counting the flashes to ensure I wait long enough, that also gives me enough to make an intial assessment... usually you know your action far enough in advance that waiting the same amount each time no matter what the action, might confuse someone... did that make any sense?

cardsman1992

10-29-2008, 01:40 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Timing tells mean very little if a guy is multitabling.

However, if a guy is playing a small amount of tables, and he thinks before he checks to you, I have found that I get checkraised a lot in that situation.

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STHollywood

10-29-2008, 06:46 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

BUMP

I think there is a lot of great info we can get from this thread and would like to continue the discussion. Keep 'em coming folks.

This.

Carl is your avatar some semi-pornographic picture of your girlfriend?

givememyleg

10-29-2008, 10:44 PM

#19 (permalink)

WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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Quote:

Originally Posted by STHollywood

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

BUMP

I think there is a lot of great info we can get from this thread and would like to continue the discussion. Keep 'em coming folks.

This.

Carl is your avatar some semi-pornographic picture of your girlfriend?

yes

ProZachNation

10-30-2008, 01:00 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Personally I think all timing tell go out the window if you are playing a multi tabler.

Just the other day I got AA at 3 different tables at almost same time, the one I insta bet PF, the other probably took me 15 seconds to get around to raising PF because I was doing stuff on another table.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhappy333

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kb coolman

10-30-2008, 01:56 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ProZachNation

Personally I think all timing tell go out the window if you are playing a multi tabler.

I agree. I only 3-table, but there are times when I'm making decisions on all three at the same time. So my calling/raising speed would be totally irrelevant.

The only real tell is a couple of insta-checks from the blinds in a called pot. Usually just a min raise will get those players out of the hand, but you still have to worry about anyone else.

IMHO, the only 'tells' you can use online are betting patterns. If you've put someone on a range that is strengthened on the board, get away from it with a marginal hand.

10-30-2008, 03:15 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kb coolman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProZachNation

Personally I think all timing tell go out the window if you are playing a multi tabler.

A lot of the time if someone who doesn't multitable think for a long time and then calls he's either:
1. really weak and will fold to any bet that doesn't improve his hand
2. slowrolling you

so like I said, he has a polarized range he either has the stone cold nuts or like a gutshot

kb coolman

10-30-2008, 04:14 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

so like I said, he has a polarized range he either has the stone cold nuts or like a gutshot

Yea, but is that really a tell? You've boiled him down to two options:

1) He has it
2) He doesn't

You have to make the decision based on EV and player history. You don't have in person information, so any perceived 'tell' is most likely wishful thinking.

10-30-2008, 04:41 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kb coolman

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

so like I said, he has a polarized range he either has the stone cold nuts or like a gutshot

Actually it tells me if I have a medium strength hand I can fold to any raise. Also, he's more likely to fold if I bet because nut hands occur less often. I almost always tripple or double barrel as a bluff if my opponent thinks for more than 5 seconds before calling. Of course I'm going to get trapped once in a while, but it's probably still EV+ to bluff hands that have no showdown value in this spot.

Say you raise UTG with QQ and the BB calls. The flop is 2TT, he quickly checks and you lead for 2/3 pot. He thinks for 15 seconds before calling. The turn is a 3, and he quickly checks. This is a spot where you shouldn't bet because any hand that you're beating will insta-fold and his range is a lot of tens. Checking behind is correct.

donkbee

10-30-2008, 04:59 AM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

I think there is a lot of great info we can get from this thread and would like to continue the discussion. Keep 'em coming folks.

I'm disappointed that you bumped it but didn't rate it

I single handedly rate all the threads in this forum! My default rating is usually a 3 but I gave this one a 4

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kb coolman

10-30-2008, 05:00 AM

#26 (permalink)

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Iopq - I see your point, but you're making that decision based on ranges you put him on and betting patterns. Maybe the 15 second call is a tell, but it's not one I'm putting a lot of value in.

10-30-2008, 06:33 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kb coolman

Iopq - I see your point, but you're making that decision based on ranges you put him on and betting patterns. Maybe the 15 second call is a tell, but it's not one I'm putting a lot of value in.

Yeah, but if the villain insta-calls you, you can just keep betting because he has a pocket pair he's willing to show down on a dry board

that "instacall" is actually a better indicator that villain will call a bet on the next street than the slow response an indicator of weakness

x in extremo

10-30-2008, 08:13 AM

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I try to use timing to my advantage by instacalling (or instaraising) my set on the flop (for instance) when I don't want donks to try and draw on me.
I sometimes take a few seconds to think over a big scare card to scare the guy into thinking I have it and have him check so I can draw my straight or flush. When I have an unbeatable (or nearly) nut flop, I'll just play standard timing, no games, raising or check/calling according to position and opposition.

I'm more weary of minimal raises than time taking.. But sometimes the guy is just a newbie with no idea.

JR9477

10-30-2008, 04:54 PM

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I noticed I usually take a few seconds to think before I bet to price out Straight and/or Flush draws on the Flop&Turn. I usually do this when I have a good hand.

I agree with XTR1000, in that Bet Sizing and Timing are important. I believe these skills work as well in live play against opponents who give off few physical tells.

Fnord

10-30-2008, 05:13 PM

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Very quick actions polarize ranges.

When someone bets very quickly after a street is delt, the card(s) delt had little to no impact on their decision making. Hence you're either facing a very strong hand that didn't care much about the flop, an auto-push situation or someone who was going to bet that street no matter what came as a c-bet, follow-through or they flipped the spew bit.

This applies to both online and live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ProZachNation

10-30-2008, 06:13 PM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Truth, and in live you can usually tell which it is too

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhappy333

I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.

Fnord

10-30-2008, 06:46 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Hand texture plays a pretty key role as well. You can discount medium-strong hands (unless your opponent over-plays them) and draws. Generally when a card/flop hits that changes the texture of the hand someone will pause to re-consider what to do about it. How much to bluff or how much to extract.

Also live, many weak players will under-play very strong hands like sets adn top two when a draw hits. So the insta-bet is much more likely to be a bluff or over-played hand from such a player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

settecba

10-30-2008, 08:23 PM

#33 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I agree. However, doesnt this apply more when someone acts first? and not so much when it is an insta-call for example? I dont know...just a thought...

Robb

10-30-2008, 10:41 PM

#34 (permalink)

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For the multi-tabling regs, I have found that they often take extra time "counting outs." Example, I'm PFR and get called in the blinds, flop is T 6 5 (2 suited). He checks, I bet, and then you can almost see his brain trying to cope with the "outs vs. pot odds" problem. If blanks hit turn/river, I'm almost certainly ahead.

This (I think) is a phenomenon in 25nl and lower, where the regs may just be learning basic poker math, but idk if applies higher up.

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10-31-2008, 05:27 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I would say this applies to fast bets, but not necessarily fast calls.

settecba

10-31-2008, 08:31 AM

#36 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I would say this applies to fast bets, but not necessarily fast calls.

Exactly what I said...

oskar

10-31-2008, 12:23 PM

#37 (permalink)

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I played a hand yesterday that made me think of this thread. I had Q9 in the SB in a 5-way limped pot. Board was AJ59Q - possible flush. LAGG and very creative table. No action until the river, and I bet out 3/4 PSB, it folds to the button who thinks about it, and then minraises. He has $5 left (10NL). I have some action on the other tables, so I request time and come back to decide if and how much I should raise. I decided against this guy I was good here most of the time and I want to represent a bluff and bet out $10. He insta calls and mucks.
Later he sais "good move" and explains that he called because I took so long. I think he called because he's a station, and that's why I massively overbet the pot with a mediocre hand, but who knows.

10-31-2008, 02:21 PM

#38 (permalink)

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I've done one better, in a HU SNG I pretty much had the nuts and took 15 seconds to shove river. My opponent calls and loses the SNG. I did this specifically by reversing an online timing tell that long time thinking = marginal hand.

Pino_Diablo

10-31-2008, 06:49 PM

#39 (permalink)

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i think it's important to be observant on HU play or later in a big tourney

i don't bother early on with hitting the pre-fold button, but will later play as if i am in a real live game....

consider position, too with the timing....and any other reads or stack sizes

allinn902

05-10-2009, 12:09 PM

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I really dont think u can get too many tells online cause it all really depends on the player , me for instance ill take all the time in the world on a bad hand or do the same on a great hand , as well as quick bets , too many people count and play to what these fourms say as gospel so id say they best thing is play ur odds and worrie bout the tells when your sitting at a table with real people in front of you

IncaMabel

05-10-2009, 04:36 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by kb coolman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProZachNation

Personally I think all timing tell go out the window if you are playing a multi tabler.

In my own humble opinion..about timming tells, for one i learned something a long time ago and unfortunetly sometimes i dont always stick to it but in general i do..is you basicaly take always the same time weither you are going to fold or play or raise a hand! By doing this..its a little harder for your opponenet to get a read. In my thoughts of course and something I find very effective.

Milleneumfalcn

09-28-2009, 06:43 PM

#42 (permalink)

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The other variable in online playing is the person timing affected by things like girlfriend/wife, kids, dogs some of us can play without distraction. I t can make it look like there is logic between the timing.

Monty3038

09-28-2009, 07:49 PM

#43 (permalink)

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Be sure to factor in connection speed/quality a little too... if the guy has dropped connection 3 times in the last 10 minutes... a long pause might not be him thinking... it might be his sucky connection dropping again.

geno9

09-28-2009, 08:33 PM

#44 (permalink)

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there are many factors to timing...

1. what type of player is the villan?
if he's a lagg he will most likely act quickly with all of his decisions, tagg would be most likely slow and thought out. also a key would be to read the timing per person per hand. do they always take the same amount of time every hand or do they act quickly with the nuts and slowly with a bluff. its a good tell to pick up on.

2. what is the players connection?
pretty easy, is he 100% 99% or is he getting disconnected alot. it will be the difference whether you think hes making a decision or his connection sucks.

3. is he playing one table or playing multi tables?

its pretty important to find this out because even if his connection is good and you think he's taking awhile for an important decision when meanwhile hes playing another hand on a different table and not really paying attention to your hand at all.

acehigh19

09-29-2009, 02:42 AM

#45 (permalink)

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Playing off line, I think it's easier to use tells-- online, I find there are too many random factors, like what Milleneumfalcn wrote. In general, I try to (even though I'm a donk) keep my timing the same whether I'm gonna fold, raise, or call.

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