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vennix
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02-26-2009, 02:25 AM
Post subject: One Hand that when I am delt I still become confused on what
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Derby City
Posts: 31
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When delt 22 no matter what the position and what my chip stack is I still become confused on what to do with this hand. So like I was told when I was 16 learning the game when in doubt fold so that's just what I do. But I was just curious as to how some of you more experienced players play this hand. Any opinions?
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setmine
btw that's the worst thread title ever
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
btw that's the most cogent thread title ever
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fyp.
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Ich grolle nicht...
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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This question is so rediculously vague that you wont get any great answers. Try posting some situations where you're dealt 22 and we're confused and ask for some more specfic advise.
If you're just talking pre flop here's what I generally do with 22.
This is 6 max btw:
Open in a tight or standard game from all postions (unless there are shitloads of shortstacks)
Fold UTG or sometimes MP if a game is very loose or 3 bet filled
Call raises in position to set mine if we have enough implied odds (the guy's full stacked or close to it)
Sometimes I'll limp behind a limper(s) if they are unlikely to fold to an isolation raise.
This is a very general summary and prolly not much help so be more specific!
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youngunpoker
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 29
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Dueces are trash, When I'm in BB i'll play them. Also if your in a tournament extreme short stacked and heads-up I'll push with them and hope for the best. Although you won't lose much by playing them because you either hit your set or fold. Try to post an actually scenario people will respect the post more.
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vennix
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Derby City
Posts: 31
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Yea I see new to the site why so harsh lol. I get the damn hand all the time and I usually fold it.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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We're rough on newcomers, think 'Project Mayhem'.
About ducks:
The way you mentioned stack size, you're probably a tourney player. If that's the case, then early in a tournament you may want to limp them in early position and raise them if it's folded to you in late position. On the flop you're probably going to check/fold unless you hit a set. Later in a tournament the strategy becomes more about fold equity and stack sizes (yours and your opponents, too) there's more info on that in the tourney forum in one of the stickies on top.
If you want a better idea bout set mining in cash games and in the early levels of tournaments, read this.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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vennix
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Derby City
Posts: 31
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so I see I am not the only one who still questions whether or not to play the hand. Thanks for the input guys.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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How do you play 33?
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
How do you play 33?
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:P
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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vennix
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Derby City
Posts: 31
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lol depends on position on button i would raise call small raise or limp to try and see a set any big push or raise i'm folding unless im low stackin but in a cash game I throw em away. Ithink its that way for all pp until I get to 88 because thats my birthday yr lol I just play that hand pretty hard if I can.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by vennix
lol depends on position on button i would raise call small raise or limp to try and see a set any big push or raise i'm folding unless im low stackin but in a cash game I throw em away. Ithink its that way for all pp until I get to 88 because thats my birthday yr lol I just play that hand pretty hard if I can.
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So why is 22 different than 33?
Sound reasoning with the 88 hand. I play 23o pretty hard also because in a little over 2 years I'll be 23. So, it makes pretty solid sense imho.
/sarcasm
To answer your 22 question, and just about any other general question you will come here with. The answer is "it depends!"
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vennix
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Derby City
Posts: 31
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lol depends on position on button i would raise call small raise or limp to try and see a set any big push or raise i'm folding unless im low stackin but in a cash game I throw em away. Ithink its that way for all pp until I get to 88 because thats my birthday yr lol I just play that hand pretty hard if I can.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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im screwed...my bithday is on 27!!!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
im screwed...my bithday is on 27!!!
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damn you're old
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
im screwed...my bithday is on 27!!!
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damn you're old |
November 27th......im 24 years old
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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JJ is a trash trouble hand and you should always fold it because J isn't far on in the alphabet Q is much better cos it is near da end so play K2 lots.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
im screwed...my bithday is on 27!!!
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damn you're old |
November 27th......im 24 years old |
damn you're old
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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So Vennix: Quick question.
Do you understand when to continue on the flop with 22 and when not to continue on the flop with 22? Can you think of any examples?
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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If I could offer something different here, I know a lot of arguments and discussions are started on the question of whether and how one should play low pocket pairs.
I have a slightly different perspective. I think that in full ring games, it probably doesn't matter except when you are able to cheaply setmine. If you can get into a hand cheaply with a pair of deuces and a big pot and big stacks, then you can obviously collect a bundle if you hit a set. But other than in that scenario, while it is possible to extract some value from these hands, I suspect even the best players in full ring games don't extract a lot of it.
The reason is that in most cases these hands don't win if they are shown down. First, the people who stay in the hand with usually include someone with a made hand, and that made hand will almost always beat yours. (Pocket deuces will almost never win as a flush, will rarely win as a straight, and will form a set on only 1 of 8 flops.) So what you are really doing when you play deuces, besides setmining, is betting on your abilities to outplay other players post-flop. That's fine, but in that sense it's not much different than any other marginal hand. If you are a good enough player, you could probably extract the same post-flop value out of something like 97 offsuit as you could with deuces, except for the setmining value.
So what I would say is that if you aren't comfortable with playing small pocket pairs, don't bother. (Except that you should always play them for setmining value in a multiway pot with several deep stacks.) It's probably not, in the scheme of things, a huge leak in your game.
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well say you calculate that the set mining/flopping oesd draws is break even if you call a raise
as in you will only cover the amount of the raise by set mining
then your ability to take it away post flop is the exact amount you will gain
if your attempts of taking it away post-flop are EV- then you shouldn't attempt it and deuces will be EV neutral
if your attempts are EV+ you should do it and deuces will be EV+
but with 79o if you call a raise you're already the amount of the raise behind since you're going to flop a straight or an oesd a very small percentage of the time
so you have to be VERY good at taking it away post flop since you're already 4-5BB behind every time you stick around in a raised pot with 79o
so 79o is going to be almost always EV- to limp/call unless you have a huge post-flop edge
but 22 might be a good hand to limp and call a raise even if your edge is very small
but both hands will perform better in late position if you raise them and have a chance of taking the blinds
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
well say you calculate that the set mining/flopping oesd draws is break even if you call a raise
as in you will only cover the amount of the raise by set mining
then your ability to take it away post flop is the exact amount you will gain
if your attempts of taking it away post-flop are EV- then you shouldn't attempt it and deuces will be EV neutral
if your attempts are EV+ you should do it and deuces will be EV+
but with 79o if you call a raise you're already the amount of the raise behind since you're going to flop a straight or an oesd a very small percentage of the time
so you have to be VERY good at taking it away post flop since you're already 4-5BB behind every time you stick around in a raised pot with 79o
so 79o is going to be almost always EV- to limp/call unless you have a huge post-flop edge
but 22 might be a good hand to limp and call a raise even if your edge is very small
but both hands will perform better in late position if you raise them and have a chance of taking the blinds
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I don't dispute your specifics at all (except I would note that you're about 1 in 12 to get an OESD with 97, and you also will sometimes flop top pair, two pair, or trips, so while 22 is clearly a superior hand it isn't a hugely superior one). Indeed, I probably play 22 five or six times as often as 97, so obviously in my own game I consider it a better hand!
I was just making the more general point that when you don't hit your set with 22 (i.e., 7 of 8 times), you are basically relying on your ability to outplay your opponents post-flop to win the hand, which is exactly what you might do with a variety of different hands if you decided to play them. If you can do it, fine-- I don't in any way criticize players for playing hands that they can get positive EV out of. But it's probably entirely possible to become a profitable poker player without playing low pocket pairs other than in favorable setmining situations. If a player finds these hands difficult to play postflop, there's nothing at all wrong with just not playing them.
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yeah but when both players miss 97 has no showdown value but 22 does
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
yeah but when both players miss 97 has no showdown value but 22 does
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That's a consideration when you go heads up with 22 (and if I can isolate a loose player with 22, that can be a very profitable play) but it is pretty rare in the multi-way pots that you are going to be setmining in. Plus, even when everyone misses, 22 is a very vulnerable hand to bluffs.
Again, not saying it isn't a positive EV hand for some people. It is. But it isn't for everyone, and I doubt it affects too many players' bottom lines very much if they decide not to play it.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
yeah but when both players miss 97 has no showdown value but 22 does
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97 generally has more equity than 22 against a calling range, therefore 97 is probably better to play back with than 22.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
yeah but when both players miss 97 has no showdown value but 22 does
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97 generally has more equity than 22 against a calling range, therefore 97 is probably better to play back with than 22. |
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 74.676% 74.38% 00.29% 993448620 3919710.00 { 99+, KJs+, AKo, KQo }
Hand 1: 25.324% 25.03% 00.29% 334309080 3919710.00 { 97o }
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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.380% 66.04% 00.34% 461352312 2390994.00 { 99+, KJs+, AKo, KQo }
Hand 1: 33.620% 33.28% 00.34% 232485732 2390994.00 { 22 }
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Depends on what the calling range is.
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vennix
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Derby City
Posts: 31
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
So Vennix: Quick question.
Do you understand when to continue on the flop with 22 and when not to continue on the flop with 22? Can you think of any examples?
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If I flop nothing and get a raise to me fold. If I flop a set I would throw about double the BB at my opponents looking for a raise if I flop nothing with low cards on the board I stab at the pot about 3 to 4 times the blind trying to see who hit. But that move depends on what I have in front of me in my stack at the time.
Like ^^^ said it just depends.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
yeah but when both players miss 97 has no showdown value but 22 does
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97 generally has more equity than 22 against a calling range, therefore 97 is probably better to play back with than 22. |
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 74.676% 74.38% 00.29% 993448620 3919710.00 { 99+, KJs+, AKo, KQo }
Hand 1: 25.324% 25.03% 00.29% 334309080 3919710.00 { 97o }
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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.380% 66.04% 00.34% 461352312 2390994.00 { 99+, KJs+, AKo, KQo }
Hand 1: 33.620% 33.28% 00.34% 232485732 2390994.00 { 22 }
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Depends on what the calling range is. |
I was talking postflop, where if your behind 22 generally has 2 outs, and a hand like 97o (or better 97s) has potential gutshots, backdoor straights, backdoor flushes, higher pairs, etc.
But it's whatever. The question was way too general and we all know it depends on so many different factors.
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