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OESD and midpair against aggro opponent

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JoeHaw

11-30-2009, 10:56 PM Post subject: OESD and midpair against aggro opponent

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

Villain runs
34/25/5.5 over 67 hands w like 20% 3bet
90 cbet etc probably not just running good imo

$0.05/$0.10 Ante $0.02 Deep No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG spartacus0715 ($20.87)
UTG+1 Hero ($15)
CO cold_smile ($11.46)
BTN HGE_88 ($20.18)
SB snailhunter ($10.46)
BB benjthenuts ($38.19)

Pre-Flop: ($0.27, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1

1 fold, Hero checks, 1 fold, HGE_88 raises to $0.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.40

This is a raise normally I'm just switching to 6max used to open folding 22-66 ep in FR so that's my first mistake just habitual misclick i guess.

EDIT: I posted btw shouldnt have but I did in case you're confused

Flop:

($1.17, 2 players)
Hero checks, HGE_88 bets $0.60, Hero raises to $1.60, HGE_88 calls $1

He's got all broadways lots of SCs probably J8s type hands too but considering his high cbet I'm way ahead... so call? I hate to give him another card and have to play a guessing game when an overcard hits especially if I'm not sure I'm getting value from worse. Thats why I raised, I've been raising in this 2.5x area for a while now on flops idk should have made it 1.80??

Turn:

($4.37, 2 players)
Hero checks, HGE_88 bets $2.20, Hero folds

Is this standard versus this type of opponent? Like I said I'm not used to six max and I'm not really sure how much his range narrows with the double barrel. Yeah he's aggro but its a smallish sample and theres no reason for him to think I'm peeling w A high versus a legitimate hand.

Is my thought process alright here? I'm trying to start posting some more hands again.

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surviva316

12-01-2009, 12:29 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

this hand seems a hot mess

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

JoeHaw

12-01-2009, 12:49 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

glad I posted it then. Elaborate please?

I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
-Thomas Jefferson

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
-Thomas Edison

JoeHaw

12-01-2009, 12:49 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

glad I posted it then. Elaborate please?

Pelion

12-01-2009, 08:47 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Your chance of hitting a hand you love on the turn is around 16%. Throw in the other 2 sixes and youre up to 20%. Checkraising the flop small enough that you bloat the pot with no fold equity and then check/folding the 80% of the time you miss to a half pot bet from an aggro player on the turn is pretty horrible.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Hoopy

12-01-2009, 10:42 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Riverballs

Posts: 777

Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point

Since villein is loose and aggro will he fold better hands that often?
I'd check raise to like $2 at least, making it small might make him peel with missed overs.

Pelion

12-01-2009, 10:47 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 79.192% 78.38% 00.81% 55872 576.00 { 66 }
Hand 1: 20.808% 20.00% 00.81% 14256 576.00 { AKo }

Having him peel missed overs is really not a bad result, especially since he has no implied odds when he hits. I agree wed rather charge him more though.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Hoopy

12-01-2009, 11:23 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Riverballs

Posts: 777

I guess we're checking the turn if we miss or hit. To allow him to continue betting with worse or to get a free card if we miss.
Check shoving the turn is pretty spewy right?

Outlaw

12-01-2009, 12:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2007

Posts: 1,033

Donk/folding the flop then leading the turn is much better imo. He raises all hands that beat you on the flop and folds worse ones.

surviva316

12-01-2009, 05:09 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeHaw

glad I posted it then. Elaborate please?

ok, then...

posting from the MP is bad. i know you said you already know this, but you prolly don't realize how bad it is. posting in MP means you pay 0.50BB's for the chance to play in two positions that aren't that profitable. let's say you run 10BB/100 from MP and run 3BB/100 from UTG, that means that this decision is gonna cost you (10/100 + 3/100) - .5 = -0.37BB's, over two hands, so that means you run -18.5BB's/100 over those two hands. that's pretty bad. In fact, if you run 6BB's/100 over the course of the next orbit, you still haven't made up for the one measly bb that you posted. so not only are you better off from a mathematical proftibility stand point waiting for the blinds to come to you in the next two minutes, you're actually better off waiting for the blinds to pass you and then come back around to you. and if you're table selecting properly (leaving tables that have no fish and changing tables a lot once you have a feel that one isn't good), then this habit can like actually affect your winrate pretty significantly. so it's not nit picking for me to say posting in the MP is really bad.

so once you post, you get sooooo fortunate by being dealt 66 just two off from the button. but you refer to your handy dandy FR preflop hand selection chart and are like "nah, i don't play 66 from UTG+1" and opt not to raise. well not only are you just 2 off from the BU, so you can DEF play this hand profitably, but you've already VPIP'ed, so your range should be wider anyway. so this is pretty bad. it's so easy to always know how far you are from the BU at 6m that it is truly silly to make any mistake along the lines of "i didn't realize it was 5-handed" or your "i didn't realize i wasn't playing FR"

then to highlight how absent-minded your check was, you actually still think it's profitable to call 4 more bb's OOP to a wide range. i assure you that if you had just open raised, there would have been no worse situation than being OOP, HU without the initiative to a wide range (because if CO knows anything, then he could be iso'ing J9o, 98o, A7o, and all sorts of other crap that has ZERO reverse implied odds, to your hand that is all implied odds). so if calling this big of a raise to be in this spot is profitable, then surely opening for 2 more bb's or something would have been profitable as well.

then comes the flop, and i truly that any of your choices in the world would have been better than your flop play here. your c/smallish raise is going to fold everything that you beat unless he decides to peel with overs (which still isn't great because we have no reads so we'll be in a really bad spot if he decides to bluff at any later streets and he even has like 25% equity anyway), and i don't see an unknown folding anything worse for a dollar more IP, and we give him the opportunity to 3b and get us off our hand with hands that we had our best implied odds against like sets and KK+, as well as the opportunity to 3b bluff us. so, we've manipulated his range as poorly as possible against our hand.

donking out is better than this play, but i don't really see why we can't just c/c since we have SD value and an ass ton of equity, might as well get a street of value from missed overs, and might as well not let him play is KK+, sets perfectly by raising us off our hand.

soooooo, that's why i don't like this hand[/b]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

Carroters

12-01-2009, 05:20 PM

#11 (permalink)

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BOOM ^^^ That's what you fucking get for asking people elaborate BAAAAAM!!!!!!!!!

In seriousness though, yah just c/c flop and bluff/semibluff raise (bigger) with something that doesn't have plenty of SD value.

As played call the half pot turn bet since he probably doesn't have a boat very often given his line and we still haz good implied odds vs overpairs that are likely a decent chunk of his range now.

WildBill

12-01-2009, 05:21 PM

#12 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Oct 2009

Posts: 32

You crippled yourself preflop. This would be a good flop for your hand if you came in raising.

Am I the only one who wouldn't check turn after checkraising flop?

aka_red

12-01-2009, 07:54 PM

#13 (permalink)

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I don't think you realize that your hand is a semi-bluff. I think for some reason you think because you have a pair here you have value. If you look at the hand that way, it will be much easier for you to play.

I wouldn't post utg+1, and if I did I would raise this. Also, I'm fine with the flop raise but you need to make it at least $1.80. I would also probably bet the turn if you think you have any fold equity ($3ish).

[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face

JoeHaw

12-01-2009, 08:17 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

thanks for the responses you guys- especially surviva. I know I'm playing a shitton of hands bad like this- I need to start studying more again.

So if I c/c flop I also c/c any turn but c/f river? what if he checks turn and bets river?

I hardly think an opponent like this will check through turn AND river when he's missed without firing again.

aka_red

12-01-2009, 08:29 PM

#15 (permalink)

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I'm pretty sure c/c is the worst line you can take here. I would also argue that it is not even close.

[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face

JoeHaw

12-03-2009, 10:13 PM

#16 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

What do you think the best line is? Donking? or raising to 1.80ish?

Fnord

12-08-2009, 04:22 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Check/call
Check/call
Check/call

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OESD and midpair against aggro opponent

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