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Dash
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04-09-2009, 03:56 AM
Post subject: Not getting paid for trips!
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#1 (permalink)
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Two Pair
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 36
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Ok, so I had PP on 2 tables simultaneously, flopped sets on both, than got paid somewhat disappointingly. Too strong?
PS No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) -
SB ($0.60)
BB ($0.81)
UTG ($5.31)
MP ($4.48)
CO ($6.36)
Hero (Button) ($3.66)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 4d4h,
MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.04, 1 fold, BB calls $0.02, MP calls $0.02
Flop: ($0.13) 8h, Jc, 4c
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $0.04, BB calls $0.04, MP calls $0.04
Turn: ($0.25) 8c
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $0.56, 2 folds
Total pot: $0.25 | Rake: $0
PS No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) -
SB ($5.50)
BB ($1)
UTG ($1.51)
MP ($3.85)
Hero (Button) ($4.21)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 9h9s
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.04, SB calls $0.03, BB calls $0.02, UTG calls $0.02
Flop: ($0.16) 9d, 4c, 8c
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $0.04, Hero raises to $0.12, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.08
Turn: ($0.40) 6h
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.38, 1 fold
Total pot: $0.40 | Rake: $0
In the 1st case I figured I was getting called by any 8 or J. In the 2nd hand I wanted to avoid another draw for straight-chasers. Should I have played slower?
Also, if anyone can tell me the acronym Renton hates without actually using it I'd appreciate it!
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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You'll do fine if you never minraise again. Most ppl around here advise raising at least 4 times the BB +1BB for every limper. That's cool, imo.
Your bet sizing is strange. You should generally not look to bet more than the pot size on any street.
There are a lot of things wrong with these hands, and I'm sure some others will address them.
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Ich grolle nicht...
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Hand 1 - Limp "Behind" preflop. If someone else bets the flop, raise. As played preflop, you should be betting more on the flop ($0.14 or so). On the turn, you have the effective nuts sir. There is no need to bet 2x the pot. What do you expect to accomplish with that? Bet right at pot again, so ($0.23ish). Then obviously get the money in on the river as long as it isn't a J/8. And when I say get the money in that means if villain bets, raise, and if he checks bet about the size of the pot.
Hand 2 - Quit with the pot sweetener minraising preflop. It's dumb. Raise preflop to like $0.10 or so in this case. Bet pot on the flop, and pot on the turn, getting the money in if you are raised at any point. And raising if anyone bets into you on either the flop or turn.
To summarize: Quite minraising preflop. When you raise preflop, raise 4xbb + 1bb per limper before you. Postflop, wtf are you doing? You seem to bet really small in the wrong spots and bet really large in the wrong spots as well. Start betting a % of the pot where the % is generally 50%-100%. The % you want to bet will depend on your hand strength, the likely hands villain has, and the board texture/situation.
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tyrn
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04-09-2009, 04:14 AM
Post subject: Re: Not getting paid for trips!
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#4 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dash
In the 1st case I figured I was getting called by any 8 or J. In the 2nd hand I wanted to avoid another draw for straight-chasers. Should I have played slower?
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You want them to be calling you. The idea of protection bets is not to fold out people who are drawing, but to make them pay for it outside of their odds. The can choose to stay in the hand, but at a price which puts you ahead in the long run.
You over bet the pot in both hands. This is bad, no one is calling you without hands that beat you in both scenarios. In general a pot sized bet is more than enough to keep immediate odds on your side vs draws.
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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I agree with the replies.
Don't minraise preflop ever. In general you just allow poor hands to price themselves in LP preflop and you play a multiway pot in many situations where you don't know how good your hand is.
In hand one, bet closer to pot on flop and then close to pot on turn (20 cents should do it). You were miles ahead on this hand. No need to blow him out of the water. Your over bet probably represented a flush to him. Had you bet lower he may have stayed around. If he folds to a value bet, then he had nothing anyway...
Hand 2 - I dont mind the flop raise since your well ahead at the moment and you got some money into the pot. On the turn you probably should've gone somewhere around $.35 to keep him in.
You are unhappy with the $ you made on this hand, but you have to ask yourself, unless the opponent is a complete tool, what hand could he have that would possibly call that type of an over bet? If he had QQ+, he probably would have just got it in on the flop after your reraise so you evaporated any chance for him to stick around on the turn with anything but lower sets.
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I confess in quicksand
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Like others have said, don't over-bet so much... only better hands call. Hit your set, take them to value town.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Illfavor
Your bet sizing is strange. You should generally not look to bet more than the pot size on any street.
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This. It isn't quite this categorical-- there are situations where it is OK to overbet the pot for some strategic reason (to create a maniac table image, for instance, or as a perverse form of value bet that looks like a bluff). And I also think it's OK to overbet the pot shoving all-in if (a) you think you will get called by worse hands or (b) the "correct" amount of the bet is going to put most of your chips in anyway.
But in general, you should have a very specific reason to overbet the pot, and normally your bet-sizing will and should be less than that.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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Like they have all said you need to start your betting off better from the get go. If you had started preflop with (3.5-4xbb +1 per limper) .10 or .12 and then made pot sized bets on each street you would get all the money in the middle easily without making an over bet. Sit down and do the math useing different opening bets and you'll be amazed what a difference it makes in building the pot. Which is what you want to do when you hit your sets. By trying to just shove it in or making a X times the pot bet after a goofy min bet your scaring off the money.
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it  |
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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Dash, invest $10 in a months grinderschool microstakes membership and specifically watch jyms29 video where he explains stack to pot ratio's and this would sort out the reasoning behind how you should be sizing your bets. The rest of the videos available will make a big difference to your play as well
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Overbets are best when very very strong hands that you beat are in their range.
Let's say you flop a set and Cbet on a 2-tone board.. on the turn a FD comes in. He smooth calls a turn bet or its check-check. The board pairs the river. Here is a great time to overbet or shove. He will call all day with the flush.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Keith_MM
Dash, invest $10 in a months grinderschool microstakes membership and specifically watch jyms29 video where he explains stack to pot ratio's and this would sort out the reasoning behind how you should be sizing your bets. The rest of the videos available will make a big difference to your play as well
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THIS ONE VIDEO IS WORTH TEN BUCKS!
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it |
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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playing scared yo
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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if hes calling you on the turn with a flush draw hes a chump and hes got like 19% to win, we call those ppl 19% pros. same idea with a straight draw. you have to bet it like you know hes not going to hit it and if he does i guess you fold and wait for next time
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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oh dem 19% pros.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
oh dem 19% pros.
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Boy haven't heard that term in a long time............Oh wait I've never heard them called 19% pros...LMAO
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it |
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I havnt read all the replies, but heres a tip. I love playing against people like you, because you tell me exactly what you have. You make it very easy for me to play correctly.
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Just playing to improve.
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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lol can we start calling them 19% pros? thats what me and my buddies call them, they're everywhere
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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You do realize draws are good hands too right?
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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i do but not when theyre calling with bad pot odds with 1 card to come on a flush draw
i guess we dont need to call them 19% pros
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Pot odds are for limit imo.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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idk man im not a pro or anything but whenever im playing a draw im always doing little calculations to see if im getting my moneys worth
how much is in the pot? how much more to call? how many ppl in the hand? that kinda stuff i think is real important
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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It is... I'm thinking oskar was getting at "pot odds are for limit... Implied odds are for No Limit" kinda thing.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
It is... I'm thinking oskar was getting at "pot odds are for limit... Implied odds are for No Limit" kinda thing.
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Which isn't, of course, completely true, as implied odds do matter in limit (for instance, they make set mining and suited connectors more valuable plays) and pot odds do matter in no limit (if a player is all-in or a player has no real read about how players will respond to action on later streets).
It's important to understand both concepts in both games.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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I agree. It was simply my interpretation of what Oskar might have meant.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Just saying that pure pot odds are rarely important in NL - unless you have a really obvious draw like the nut flush on a 3-flush flop multi-way. Or an 8 on 79T multi way - basically anything that isn't going to get payed off... or when someone is all-in obviously.
But it's rarely a mistake to call an under psb with 9 outs.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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you should never be betting more than pot on any street, except several rare cases on the river against bad players
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
you should never be betting more than pot on any street, except several rare cases on the river against bad players
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overbetting is for when you have the nuts or air
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froggie53088
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: EG NY
Posts: 21
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alright so 19% pros it is
and thanks for clarifying what oskar mean
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i wanna be the very best like no one ever was....
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