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AlexAllen02
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12-31-2006, 12:40 AM
Post subject: NLHE T&P Concept #17
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 47
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What do you guys think about this idea from the concepts section of NLHE T&P:
Concept 17:
If your preflop raise is called behind you, check a lot of flops.
Unlike limit holdem where you usually bet the flop after your raise is called, in no limit you should often check to those callers. That's true even if there is only one caller. You should usually check if you don't have very much, and you should check a lot of your good hands as well. What you do after you check is dependent on your hand and your opponents, and don't be afraid every once in a while to check-raise bluff.
This struck me because it is pretty much the opposite of what I do. Any thoughts?
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Fnord
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12-31-2006, 12:50 AM
Post subject: Re: NLHE T&P Concept #17
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#2 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AlexAllen02
This struck me because it is pretty much the opposite of what I do.
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Yup, chilling out on the flop and raising less from UTG/HJ both had very positive effects on my win-rate and swings.
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Originally Posted by AlexAllen02
Any thoughts?
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Online players c-bet too much. A typical TAgg betting the flop does almost nothing to define his hand.
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Eric
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12-31-2006, 01:48 AM
Post subject: Re: NLHE T&P Concept #17
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#3 (permalink)
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: on my laptop
Posts: 1,782
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AlexAllen02
Concept 17:
If your preflop raise is called behind you, check a lot of flops.
Unlike limit holdem where you usually bet the flop after your raise is called, in no limit you should often check to those callers. That's true even if there is only one caller. You should usually check if you don't have very much, and you should check a lot of your good hands as well. What you do after you check is dependent on your hand and your opponents, and don't be afraid every once in a while to check-raise bluff.
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It is confusing taken by itself because continuation bets are widely recommended. However, I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet so maybe the explanations behind it clear up some of the confusion.
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Dave Davis
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 100
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This is completely new idea. It is tought provoking. Maybe because c betting is widely recommended, if you don't c bet, it is interpreted as a slowplay so you can get free cards by doing that especially if you check raise sometimes. However, I think it only works against thinking opponents. It is completely different style from mine and something worth thinking about.
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AlexAllen02
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 47
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I've been trying some 6max in the last few days and I feel like cbetting every time can be exploited there more easily, but at full ring 50 it seems to work pretty well.
It is always a tough spot when your cbet gets called or raised and you don't have much, but I think I am profiting anyway with all of the times I have TT or JJ and an A or K flops, I cbet and take the pot. So many people just call with small pocket pairs and then fold when they don't hit.
If you check and they bet because of your weakness, you have to either check/raise, fold, or smooth call and try to take it on the turn. All of these get pretty expensive if you're wrong.
Sklansky tries to balance this with throwing in some check-raise bluffs, but I don't know if people at this level are paying close enough attention to realize you are capable of that and becoming more cautious as a result. I think oftentimes you are just losing control of the hand.
I'd like to hear some contrary explanantions to what I'm thinking, because Sklansky may know a bit more about poker than me. This idea is just in the "concepts" section, so the only explanation offered by him is what I quoted above.
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Dave Davis
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 100
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At this level, I believe it doesn't pay off. Maybe you can try it at higher stakes. Fnord mentioned something interesting here.
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Online players c-bet too much. A typical TAgg betting the flop does almost nothing to define his hand.
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Could you explain this a little further, Fnord? I feel like c betting is really not intended to define your hand, but to steal pots where you missed flops. What did you mean with this?
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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obv, it really depends on your caller. it's spew to c-bet into someone who will call you down with bottom pair.... and many people will do this at 6max (correctly!)
I think the most important thing to note here is that hero is OOP, vs. someone who probably has a better hand (since it typically takes a better hand to call a raise than open with one). It also only applies if your opponent is somewhat decent (or bad, but not a calling station)
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Consider that the typical mid stakes NL player's biggest leak is hyperaggression, and you can see that checking moderately strong and even very strong hands upon occasion has the potential to earn more than betting your hand.
Another thing to consider is that most players aren't imaginative enough to think beyond a deterministic strategy. When you mix it up by occasionally checking showdown quality hands on the flop, you make yourself very difficult to read to the hopeful floater or small pair looking to push you off overcards.
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Poker is freedom
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
I think the most important thing to note here is that hero is OOP, vs. someone who probably has a better hand
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I learned this the hard way and spent a lot of time betting into good hands OOP hoping to get a fold without the benefit of position to figure to get me to see one more card for a chance to suck-out if the other guy hit.
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Dave Davis
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 100
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Looks like I have to change my strategy and all players at 2+2 and FTR have to do it too due to that idea. I c bet almost every time against 2 opponents.
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Interesting that this topic came up because I was pondering of how to pawn the 6-max $10 and $25NL on Stars with its weak-tight/tight-aggressive players. My own stats are usually 20/12 and I have c/betted the flop almost always when I was the original raiser. However, yesterday I tried to check the flop from time to time (on non scary boards I might add) and it was mind-boggling how often people bet weak with nothing when it’s checked to them. Then they fold to a re-raise or call your flop c/raise and then again weakly attempt to take down the hand on the turn. I have done this last night with both air and good hands and after doing this about 3-4 times my good hands got paid off a lot. I think Sklansky presented this concept for exactly this purpose.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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sklansky doesn't even play poker guys
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
sklansky doesn't even play poker guys
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I think he finaltabled the WPT event Mark Newhouse won recently??
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by silu_nz
Then they fold to a re-raise or call your flop c/raise and then again weakly attempt to take down the hand on the turn. I have done this last night with both air and good hands and after doing this about 3-4 times my good hands got paid off a lot.
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I see this statement a lot, and it always puzzles me. You get them to fold AND pay off your hands? How can it work both ways? Is there some super-duper secret that makes them call when you have a hand?
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
Quote:
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Originally Posted by silu_nz
Then they fold to a re-raise or call your flop c/raise and then again weakly attempt to take down the hand on the turn. I have done this last night with both air and good hands and after doing this about 3-4 times my good hands got paid off a lot.
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I see this statement a lot, and it always puzzles me. You get them to fold AND pay off your hands? How can it work both ways? Is there some super-duper secret that makes them call when you have a hand? |
Given that I have only tried this for a session I cannot comment in too much detail but last night I checked on the flop and c/raised and in instances even checked the turn and c/raised with air when flop raise was called. They folded every time.
Then two hands happened against two regulars who chatted about me being a maniac. One hand I had A9o and raised it in the CO and got called by the button. Flop was A94. I checked - button bets - I reraised - opp called. Checked turn when brick fell - button bet - I pushed - opp called. He tried to trap me with AKs.
The next hand I get 92s in the SB and raise it up - BB called. Flop comes A92. I check - BB bets. Turn is a 9. I bet small - he raises - I push. Get called by K9s and take down a big pot.
I think that my image was of a complete maniac who loves to c/raise flops too often and so I got paid off on my good hands. However, i only c/raised flops when bettor only seemed to try to take down the pot in position.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I've been experimenting with this. Pretty much you check your air and hands you're playing for stacks and bet the rest. I don't do it versus aggressive opps because their betting doesn't define their hand. pretty much it forces opponents to define their hands to you.
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Miffed22001
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01-09-2007, 02:59 AM
Post subject: Re: NLHE T&P Concept #17
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#17 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AlexAllen02
What do you guys think about this idea from the concepts section of NLHE T&P:
Concept 17:
If your preflop raise is called behind you, check a lot of flops.
Unlike limit holdem where you usually bet the flop after your raise is called, in no limit you should often check to those callers. That's true even if there is only one caller. You should usually check if you don't have very much, and you should check a lot of your good hands as well. What you do after you check is dependent on your hand and your opponents, and don't be afraid every once in a while to check-raise bluff.
This struck me because it is pretty much the opposite of what I do. Any thoughts?
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ive been ranting on about this since before T+P came out. The only difference is that i wasnt quite able to understand and articulate why i thought auto-c-betting was the equivalent of most players spewing, but then my ideas were based on pot control tactics and the knowledge that in limit you need to bet to build pots and in NL you dont necessarily do.
That bit about all NL players learning to play limit sounds pretty good again 
Quote:
Consider that the typical mid stakes NL player's biggest leak is hyperaggression, and you can see that checking moderately strong and even very strong hands upon occasion has the potential to earn more than betting your hand.
Another thing to consider is that most players aren't imaginative enough to think beyond a deterministic strategy. When you mix it up by occasionally checking showdown quality hands on the flop, you make yourself very difficult to read to the hopeful floater or small pair looking to push you off overcards.
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This annoyed the hell out of me when i first made the step upto 200nl. People basically floating obvious c-betting with garbage. It stemmed from the problem (that i probably still have) that i cannot win cash UTG in 6max long term, im breakeven at best 
Hence, one of the key notes i now have on players is whether they bet when checked to in a raised pot automatically, or if they consider the board blank versus my expected range and then how they react if i play my hand unconventionally on early streets,
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