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BlueBull
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06-09-2009, 03:48 PM
Post subject: NL 25: JJ - Standard fold?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 72
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Villain is your typical regular TAG. Seems an above avg winning player at 25NL. His 3 bet % is over 8 but the EP raiser is pretty tight which definitely tightens his 3 bet range?
a) Can I find a fold earlier?
b) Fold is std right?
c) I cant credibly represent a 10 here vs anyone thinking can I?
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($36.95)
UTG+1 ($25.00)
CO ($58.90)
Hero (BTN) ($43.45)
SB ($8.00)
BB ($26.05)
Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BTN  
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, CO raises to $1.75, Hero calls $1.75, SB calls $1.65, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1
Flop:    ($7.25, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets $5, Hero calls $5, SB folds, UTG+1 folds
Turn:  ($17.25, 2 players)
CO bets $10, Hero folds
Final Pot: $27.25
CO wins $26.45 ( won +$9.70 )
UTG+1 lost -$1.75
Hero lost -$6.75
SB lost -$1.75
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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anyone else like a shove over? spew? or does he have A-K here enough to make this ok - bit of FE against bigger PP's?
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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edit - didn't see we're pretty deep aswell. meh, I'd prob let it go.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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if you didn't see we were deep then how would you expect to have fold equity against an over pair?
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we could rep a ten
not sure why we're trying to make someone fold an overpair, though
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Doesn't it depend on what your range is vs his? If villain is a thinking player then he probably has you on some type of 3bet flat call range pf (99-JJ, AQ, AKish?). IMO the only way you can rep a T is if you laid the ground work early to prove that a T is likely in your holdings.
Im torn because the board texture is good for you and his turn bet is weak. I guess the answer to your question is "how likely is he to barrel the turn with AK or AQ". Just because he raised the UTG player doesn't mean he always has QQ-AA here...
Now that I look at it again I would probably shove over here (who knows in the moment). His pf raise is not even 2.5x and his turn bet is just over 1/2 psb and I doubt its a value bet. If villain is a reg tagg then he knows how to make strong bets to protect his hand. To me this looks like ZOMG, I needzz 2 turnz bet cuz my A high iz gOOT mostzz dayzz...
My vote shove.
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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I would 4 bet this preflop since his 3 bet seems weak.
I have his range preflop looking like this {88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo}.
As played does anyone mind calling the turn and evaluating the river? By shoving I think he folds a lot of his high card type hands and will only continue with better.
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hangchiong
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HoopyDude
I would 4 bet this preflop since his 3 bet seems weak.
I have his range preflop looking like this {88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo}.
As played does anyone mind calling the turn and evaluating the river? By shoving I think he folds a lot of his high card type hands and will only continue with better.
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4bet seems pretty bad here.Both villains seemingly know what they were doing given OP's reads.
[b]Villain is your typical regular TAG. Seems an above avg winning player at 25NL. His 3 bet % is over 8 but the EP raiser is pretty tight which definitely tightens his 3 bet range? [/b
as for it
a)i find it possible to fold pf,although its a small 3bet.
b)villain's range is pretty strong betting into 2 on da flop,with given reads,i guess his range is pretty defined here
c)you could rep a ten,but not much FE here.
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the guy's sizing just screams I CAN HAS A BIG HAND preflop
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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i think im the biggest nit here. id fold preflop
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
the guy's sizing just screams I CAN HAS A BIG HAND preflop
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Can you please elaborate on this?
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
the guy's sizing just screams I CAN HAS A BIG HAND preflop
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Can you please elaborate on this? |
villain's preflop 3bet is very very small. as if he was trying to invite action... hmm...
if villain had something like 58o and decided to make a play, his bet size would be a lot different like 3-4x the initial raise
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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But wouldnt that imply then also that he had a soul read on hero? How else would villain know to bet that small pf and turn? Even with AA this play seems like a stupid move.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
But wouldnt that imply then also that he had a soul read on hero? How else would villain know to bet that small pf and turn? Even with AA this play seems like a stupid move.
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when he's 3betting pre, hes playing against the original opener. how does hero come into this?
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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I think we are on two different levels of this hand. Im talking at the turn, not pf....I asked IOPQ to elaborate on his post because it was pretty interesting. I was hoping to get the thought process behind it.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
i think im the biggest nit here. id fold preflop
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T-Rex
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 119
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min 3 bets are sooooo scary at this level.
Ive been min raised with KK 3 times this last week all 3 were AA hahaha just throwing that out there not always true but just saying by the third time I was like no way.....not again.... I felt it soo tuff again and it was true I wasn't result oriented to what happen last time so I played it right not strictly putting him on AA but thows damn min bets are scary!
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BlueBull
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 72
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Thanks for the feedback.
I have posted this hand on a few forums and received advice pretty much across the spectrum. Lol. One moment I am hearing I must 4 bet pre the next someone is telling me that would be terrible. Then someone says raise the flop and someone else says noooooo.......
I guess the hand is a pretty tricky spot and very dependant on what I make of villains small 3 bet. I just wanted to make sure I didnt really play it terribly and while some people have implied I did I think the wide range of responses across the various forums in some strange way kind of implies my line isnt that terrible. Im still not sure whats optimal here though....
Trying to make an effort to post more hands on a daily basis and specifically in spots where I may have a tendency to stack off light. I think that and a bit of tilt control could finally change my break even run at 25nl.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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nh, well played. Wouldn't change anything.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
i think im the biggest nit here. id fold preflop
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setmine imo
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hangchiong
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 359
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misread the stack sizes.forgot that we are deep.wp
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I hate the flop call.
Is he really c-betting into 3 players? Also you have 2 players behind you.
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,139
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I hate the flop call..
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Because we are either way ahead or way behind?
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by revolvingiris
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I hate the flop call..
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Because we are either way ahead or way behind? |
not that, its because we are way behind his cbet multiway range
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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The union of the chances he has a hand, he gets there on the turn or someone to act has a hand makes me inclined to give it up. Sometimes you fold the best hand though....
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Call preflop, fold flop because you're just going to fold on the turn unless you turn a J anyway
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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