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trilerian
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11-22-2008, 02:53 PM
Post subject: New player, when to start playing for real money?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 124
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Here's the story; I stumbled on to pokerstars about 3 months ago. Though it was great cause I could play NLHE for free. So I get my first 1000 in play money and go set some tables. I played like I did when playing with friends (always seemed to hold my own there). Well needless to say, bust, bust and bust. But after a couple of days I manged to get to 40k in chips. So up to the next table. Before long I have got 400k in chips, and am starting to get pretty arrogant. Go over to friends house now and wipe the tables clean. I think; I am poker God. So, why not, I deposit some real money into my account, $25.00 and start playing .01/.02 NHLE, I do pretty well. Over the next few days I am up to $50.00. Then it all came crashing down. BUST. I then go back to play money, and can't win there either, so I start reading this forum and strategies section. Wow, I was not only a fish, but a school of the blessed things. My pre-flop betting before I read all this good stuff, was horrible. Seriously, any face card was worth 1xbb raise, any 2 face cards was worth 2xbb raise, any suited connectors 2xbb, suited faces 3xbb and suited face connectors 4xbb, pp ranged from 2xbb to oh my God, all-in.
Now, I will not play any hand that is not worth raising, with the exception of mid pp's which I will call raises for set value, only and I mean only if my stack can afford it, and their stack can pay off. And when taking into consideration if my stack can afford it I have to have enough to fire a full pot c-bet even if I didn't hit my set. BTW, I am only playing S & G's now, ring games seem to tedious for me, and I like the action of tourney style play, I absolutely love being on the bubble pushing 10, 10 into an unraised pot to see if I get any callers, and hopefully double up. Anyways, in the last two weeks I have managed to turn my dwindled down to 120k in chips to 1.6M, playing at the 25k 9 person sng's. Mainly though, I make good plays, however I do on occasion make stupid moves, then ask myself why I did that.
But on to my play now. I am extremely tight (or at least I so believe) early in a tourny in early position, the worst hand I will play is K/Qs. On the bubble I will go as low as A/Jo. I will not play mid pp's in late position unless it is folded around to me, I prefer to play mid pp's in middle postion, this seems counter intuitive, since you generally want position for those cards but I would rather have the first bet with them. Here is the reason why, 90% of the time I raise pre-flop I will be the last person to raise going to see the flop, that being the case I want to be the first person to fire at the pot. 50% (or there about) of the time, everyone who was eager enough to call my raise will fold, 30% of the time I will get a call (sorry, this makes no sense to me) and 20% I will get a re-raise. re-raises, them there are tricky, I now then have to put my opponent on a range, and see what the board looks like. But generally I treat a re-raise as tptk, over pair or a set. Usually I am folding unless I have witnessed my guy multiple times raising with middle or low pair. Rarely, my gut will tell me to fire a re-re-raise, but this is only if I have shown down some monsters previously and my op is not a tight player. But I got to tell you, it feels really good pushing 7, 7 on a flop 2, 6, 10 to be called by A K. You got to love people who will call all-ins with A K without hitting the flop. But I digress, the point; playing middle pp's the way I play them has thus far been in my favor.
Most common position to find me in a sng. Short stacked with 5-6 players left. I am here because either I have not had a single hand yet or because I got cracked, you know the story-- A's raises pre-flop something stupid to get called by 3/5s and catch the flush on the river. But that is alright, it is poker, things like that tend to happen. But here, short stacked 3 out of the money, this is my bread and butter, all the hands that I have disciplined myself to stick to are now huge. If I am betting pre-flop with no re-raises, I am willing to push the flop. By the time 4 players are left I am usually sitting pretty good, 2nd or 3rd chip leader. Now I start putting pressure on the chip leader and the bubble. My range at this stage is very unpredictable, mainly at this stage I have people scared, which is fine by me. I generally finish 2nd or 3rd. I only have a handful of 1st's, I get so loose in my range that I forget to stop and respect good bets. I am at this stage playing like the other people were at the start of the sng, well, not quite that loose, but suited connectors are always raised pre-flop, I am betting strong on any pair and I am stealing the pot on tplk. But because of this I am really susceptible to over pairs, and that is generally how I go out. Oh, you re-raise me, ok, I'll push. Hey, that's a 3-bet, I'll push. And bad beats, well I can say I claim one for about every 10 that happen to me, so when there is 3 people left at the table I push and get a caller, I am generally done.
So that's that, it thus far seems to be a winning formula, but I would like to get a few more 1st's. And of course I want to start playing real money sng's, but simply put, I am not sure I am ready for them, I am sure to face more re-raises, but should get less fish, but maybe it will be the same amount of fish. I don't know.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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This post explains your other posts lol
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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trilerian
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 124
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
This post explains your other posts lol
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I'm sorry, sarcastic one liners are of very little insight. Perhaps you could be so kind to enlighten me further. I will admit there is still much to be learned about this quarrelsome game, but shall I call you an idiot for trying to learn something new?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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You shouldn't have a simple formula for winning like you think you do. There are way too many variables in the game to allow that. Think about where you said you saw yourself a while ago, a fish. In the same amount of time in the future if you are open to learning, you will look back at this point and think, omg what a fish. And it will go on like that forever.
From what I've seen of your posts you're very results oriented, and that's the first thing you need to shake off. You don't need to be a math wiz, but you do need to understand how the maths work in the game. Take some time to get to understand the concepts of hand ranges, equity, etc.
And go through all the strategy articles and digest and understand them. There's some brilliant posters on here that have been generous enough to share a lot that will raise the quality of your game.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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sil693
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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learn
deposit
play
????
profit
imo.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Just read the beginners digest and the articles if you haven't already. You still seem to have a weired idea of how poker works.
There is no winning strategy based on your wholecards alone. It just isn't happening. Learn about position, ranges and post-flop play.
Expect to loose. You play microstakes = You suck at poker (same goes for me). Just realize it. You will be better off for it.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Just start. We'll help you from there.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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poker_pup
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 130
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You should start playing with real money as soon as you understand the rules of the game. People are much more loose and reckless when they aren't playing with real money.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Just. Start. I'm. Drunk. And. One. Word. Sentences. Seem. Funny. But. My. Advice. Is solid.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Just. Start. I'm. Drunk. And. One. Word. Sentences. Seem. Funny. But. My. Advice. Is solid.
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why are you drunk, whats the occasion?
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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sil693
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Is solid.
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[ ] One word sentence.
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trilerian
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 124
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I thank the latter posters for the information and advice. And I will be, as soon as I get a proper bankroll, be playing real money sng's.
Quote:
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You shouldn't have a simple formula for winning like you think you do. There are way too many variables in the game to allow that. Think about where you said you saw yourself a while ago, a fish. In the same amount of time in the future if you are open to learning, you will look back at this point and think, omg what a fish. And it will go on like that forever.
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This is great, and without doubt, absolutely true. I will always be a fish in hindsight, and this is something I should probably keep to forever.
Quote:
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From what I've seen of your posts you're very results oriented, and that's the first thing you need to shake off. You don't need to be a math wiz, but you do need to understand how the maths work in the game. Take some time to get to understand the concepts of hand ranges, equity, etc.
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Seen the results orientated mentioned twice now towards me. Could you please elaborate a bit on this.
Quote:
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There is no winning strategy based on your wholecards alone. It just isn't happening. Learn about position, ranges and post-flop play.
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I agree with the above quote, which is why I am here in the beginners forum, instead of the sng tactics passing myself off as Poker God. Position scares me. Every time I am on the button or co with a position hand, the player before me will act first. Great scenario would be button with A/Jo, co raised to 5xbb, 3xbb raise plus 2 for limpers. Do I fold, call or raise? I will be honest, I am generally folding here. Yes, position is a scary place for me, I can't count the number of times that I have placed a position bet, got called, flopped top two pair, checked around to me, bet the pot on the flop and turn, then get blasted on the river by a set, straight or flush.
And another question to all; is it okay to post play money hands? So long as I do it correctly, or would I be berated with a number of sarcastic replies because I am trying to get advice on something that is not real?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trilerian
Seen the results orientated mentioned twice now towards me. Could you please elaborate a bit on this.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trilerian
Yes, position is a scary place for me, I can't count the number of times that I have placed a position bet, got called, flopped top two pair, checked around to me, bet the pot on the flop and turn, then get blasted on the river by a set, straight or flush.
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This is being results oriented. The thing with poker is this.. You can make a correct decision and be punished for it. I can get AA all in preflop and lose. Does that mean it's incorrect?? Absolutely not. Same goes for bad decisions. You can make them and be rewarded. I shove all in preflop with 23o from UTG the first hand of a SNG, and get called by 2 players and I hit quad 2's on the flop and win. Does that mean it's the right play?? Absolutely not.
It's because of the above that in poker you can't look at the results to determine whether your decisions in the hand were correct. You must look at the current situation and take the information you are being currently given (from this hand, and past hands) and make the best decision possible. If you make a decision that over the long run (because poker is a shitty game in the short run) will net you a profit, then you have made a +ev (positive expected value) decision. If you have made a decision that will cost you money in the long run, you have made a -ev (negative expected value) decision.
Poker is a sum of all your decisions. Make more +ev decisions and you will show a profit in the long run. Make more -ev decisions and you will lose money.
So instead of evaluating your play of a hand by looking at the results and determining if it was correct, you must look at your decisions on every street and determine if those decisions, given the information you had, were correct (based on reads/stats, hand ranges, etc).
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sil693
Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Is solid.
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[ ] One word sentence. |
YOU GOT THE JOKE BWAH!
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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DRINKING FOR!?! GO TECH KIDS!!!
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...re-t36037.html
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/beginners-digest-learning-starts-here-t36037.html
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this^^^^^
bankrollmanagements
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
This post explains your other posts lol
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This comment was unnecessary. Please keep comments like this out of this forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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Zel
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 60
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
This post explains your other posts lol
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I agree completely with what jackvance said, but I don't think it was sarcasm. I think this does explain your other posts.
I just noticed after browsing through your other replies that you are always on the caution for being blasted away when you held a more dominant hand.
I think that caution is awesome, and its great that you learned it early, but as Stacks said, hole cards for the next street and river aren't what you should be afraid of when you make a bet. Its about the decision at that precise moment where you have all the information you need to generate a +ev in the long run. If you lose, its only a small part of your experience.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trilerian
Quote:
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From what I've seen of your posts you're very results oriented, and that's the first thing you need to shake off. You don't need to be a math wiz, but you do need to understand how the maths work in the game. Take some time to get to understand the concepts of hand ranges, equity, etc.
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Seen the results orientated mentioned twice now towards me. Could you please elaborate a bit on this. |
Stacks pretty much covered it already. Basically, just because the guy can show up with a hand that beats you a fair amount of the time, don't let it scare you to get it in with a less than nut hand. If mathematically in the long run getting it in is the best play, you have to do it. Don't think about all the money you lost the time you were behind. Think about all the potential money you lost the times you were ahead and played it weak because you were afraid of the better hand.
I'm not saying be a spewtard and stack off insanely light, but if you have a hand that's better than most hands out there that give you action, don't be afraid of the one or few hands out there that beat you.
It's like the classic KK question we all ask when we're new. "Maybe stacking off with KK preflop isn't such a good idea because I run into AA a lot?" Of course it's profitable, because we run into worse PPs, AK, spazz bluffs, etc. But results oriented people don't think that. In their recent memory they only recall seeing AA a fair amount so they try to keep it small because what if he has aces again?!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by trilerian
Quote:
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There is no winning strategy based on your wholecards alone. It just isn't happening. Learn about position, ranges and post-flop play.
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I agree with the above quote, which is why I am here in the beginners forum, instead of the sng tactics passing myself off as Poker God. Position scares me. Every time I am on the button or co with a position hand, the player before me will act first. Great scenario would be button with A/Jo, co raised to 5xbb, 3xbb raise plus 2 for limpers. Do I fold, call or raise? I will be honest, I am generally folding here. Yes, position is a scary place for me, I can't count the number of times that I have placed a position bet, got called, flopped top two pair, checked around to me, bet the pot on the flop and turn, then get blasted on the river by a set, straight or flush. |
This can't really be answered in a post. I actually don't play SnG's anymore so I have no clue what you should do here. But to help make your decision, pay attention to the players. Has this guy raised before? No? Then AJo is not doing so well against his raise. Has he raised a lot? Then AJo in position is a fairly strong hand. Don't be afraid of the guy because he gets to act before you. He's afraid because you get to act after him. You'll learn to read players and hands in time through reading these forums and experience playing.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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renee_walmer
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
This post explains your other posts lol
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flopmonkey
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 85
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Great post!
Except for Flomos Avatar is a bit distracting because I just want to stare at it instead of scrolling down to read the rest of the replies. 
j/k
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trilerian
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 124
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Again, I greatly appreciate the replies that hold intrinsic value, whether or not I agree with what is posted by those who are so generous to give me their opinions is irrelevant, as information gained being right or wrong is still worth having. However, again I will ask; what possible information can be gleamed from posts such as this?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by renee_walmer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
This post explains your other posts lol
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Please refrain from posting if you have no information to add, I do understand that those who wish to cause discord, will do so. But in return you need to know that I take offense to said comments and from here on out will report them to a moderator. Since no other course of pursuit is open to me, I am afraid that is my only option. Further more, it would be who of those who consider themselves "solid" to not upset those new people to the game, as the new people are where they make their money. Logical explanation; new fish enters ring game. Big fish takes money from new fish, big fish enters higher stake ring game, bigger fish takes money from big fish, bigger fish enters higher stake ring game, shark takes money from bigger fish. Money originally came from new fish. So why upset the new fish so that he never chooses to come out of the pond?
And since my opinions are neither wanted or appreciated on other posts, I will refrain from posting them.
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Just start. We'll help you from there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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trilerian
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 124
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Well, I started tonight with $1.00 + $0.20 sng's. I played in three of them. The first one I finished 2nd, the second one I finished 3rd and the third one I finished 1st.
The first and third tournaments were quite fun, play was extremely tight in the third tournament. The second tournament however was horrible. Villain 1 kept going all in every hand from the start, and got lucky, a lot, until there were 4 players left. Then villain 1 decided he liked villain 2 better than anyone else, so he would bet a lot against villain 2, then fold the river so villain 2 could get some chips. And yes, that is what they were doing, they were chatting about it in the chat box. Anyways, the other guy went all in with AK and lost, so I got 3rd. I hope to never participate in a sng like that again.
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sil693
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trilerian
Well, I started tonight with $1.00 + $0.20 sng's.
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What is your bankroll?
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trilerian
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 124
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Bankroll is up to $30. At this point it is not a question of money. If I wanted to I could deposit a larger bankroll, but what I am trying to accomplish is to get a feel for playing sng's with real money.
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nonodz
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 26
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I have one kestion , i 'm playing very good poker but not in real money that in freeroll tournament for cash money. But I know that people doesn't play the same with real and not real money. Thank you for your answer, help me please!
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trilerian
Please refrain from posting if you have no information to add, I do understand that those who wish to cause discord, will do so. But in return you need to know that I take offense to said comments and from here on out will report them to a moderator. Since no other course of pursuit is open to me, I am afraid that is my only option. Further more, it would be who of those who consider themselves "solid" to not upset those new people to the game, as the new people are where they make their money. Logical explanation; new fish enters ring game. Big fish takes money from new fish, big fish enters higher stake ring game, bigger fish takes money from big fish, bigger fish enters higher stake ring game, shark takes money from bigger fish. Money originally came from new fish. So why upset the new fish so that he never chooses to come out of the pond?
And since my opinions are neither wanted or appreciated on other posts, I will refrain from posting them.
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I wouldn't take offense, if I were you. The FTR regs who have taken time to respond (including Jack Vance, who wasn't trying to flame you, imo) are solid players who have beaten the micros and moved up to 50nl and 100nl and beyond. They (we) see lots of noobies come and (mostly) go. Helping noobies can get frustrating, but they stay with it, offering advice to each newcomer to the forums.
The last thing you need to do is to stop posting in others' threads, or stop posting your own threads. Keep reading, post your ideas (include the caveat that you're a noobie, and ask questions if something confuses you), and post some of your HH's. The comments you get will be sound poker advice. FWIW, that advice won't always be couched in the gentlest terms, but it will be helpful. Take every response for its value to you and just ignore anything that's not helping you, imo.
BTW, for my part, welcome to FTR. I hope you get active and learn a ton and start winning big at pokah!!!
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trilerian
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 124
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Thanks for the words of encouragement Robb. And I will post some opinions elsewhere, I just don't know how to go about it. I do know one thing though, if results are shown, I will not be posting. I am getting ready to post a hand in the s&g forum, if anyone wants to critique it.
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vclortho
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 22
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I've been playing freerolls mostly for about a year now. I finally decided to take the real money plunge two weeks ago, and I must say, I could have done it sooner.
Granted my MTT play is better for the practice I've gotten, but play money ring games are a pure crapshoot with people pushing AI with unsuited connectors or even worse junk.
I've played about 2K hands in the last two weeks, and am proud to say I'm up on my BR.
Like 'rilla said, just get in, post here for advice and analysis, and you'll get better...
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daguksta
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 13
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I've actually deposited money onto Full Tilt Poker. I've lost about $450 so far...lol. But I've started playing freerolls just now and I'm trying to win that money back now. I can't seem to get past the $100 mark so that I can withdraw my money and put it back on the my debit card. Yikes! Long grind for me ahead...
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Major Premise: FTR alone is enough for a noobie to beat the micros, if they stay here, read a lot, post HH's and listen to the good advice they get.
Minor Premise: Poker pain will either:
[ ] drive you from the game after big losses
[ ] motivate you to learn enough to win
Conclusion: Deposit your money. Make your choice.
QED
Hmm....I like that - I'm making it my sig 
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