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Yakuman
Old 08-01-2006, 11:01 PM #251 (permalink)  

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“We take new drivers to open, empty parking lots where they could drive like a spastic monkey and still have all their limbs at the end of the day.”

In poker, we call that parking lot “play money.” If a player’s game is so bad that he needs AOK’s postflop chart, then he should not be playing for real money.
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Pyroxene
Old 08-01-2006, 11:04 PM #252 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
“We take new drivers to open, empty parking lots where they could drive like a spastic monkey and still have all their limbs at the end of the day.”

In poker, we call that parking lot “play money.” If a player’s game is so bad that he needs AOK’s postflop chart, then he should not be playing for real money.
And I think play-money is like teaching people to drive using only a video game. The low stakes table may be quite different from the high stakes tables. But the play money tables do not even resemble poker.
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Halv
Old 08-01-2006, 11:08 PM #253 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyroxene
And I think play-money is like teaching people to drive using only a video game.
GTA comes to mind .

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Halv
Old 08-01-2006, 11:08 PM #254 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvSame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyroxene
And I think play-money is like teaching people to drive using only a video game.
GTA comes to mind. Oh, the carnage

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jackvance
Old 08-01-2006, 11:19 PM #255 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
“We take new drivers to open, empty parking lots where they could drive like a spastic monkey and still have all their limbs at the end of the day.”

In poker, we call that parking lot “play money.” If a player’s game is so bad that he needs AOK’s postflop chart, then he should not be playing for real money.
You can absolutely not learn to play poker at money tables. There has to be something at stake, even if it's a little bit of money, or bets have no meaning.
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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Wooderson
Old 08-01-2006, 11:23 PM #256 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
You can absolutely not learn to play poker at money tables. There has to be something at stake, even if it's a little bit of money, or bets have no meaning.
Correct. Only the most disciplined can make the leap and actually learn online in a play money environment. It's too easy to make the leap to "It's only 70-cents" logic and say "It's only play money." Easier than at micro-stakes.
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Yakuman
Old 08-01-2006, 11:52 PM #257 (permalink)  

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You can find play money tables at Stars with better players than the rank and file at P@cific.

1. It teaches you to get comfortable with the software, to play only good hands, to be disciplined, etc. Especially discipline, because it's the most important thing to learn.

2. To the extent that some people sell Stars' play money, there is something at stake, however miniscule.

3. It is a great confidence builder.

If you can't do play money, do Poker Academy, where you can play against bots in simulated conditions ranging from Party ring game to WSOP main even. Party has something called Poker Trainer, where you play limit against bots.

I started with play money. I played until I was absolutely sick of it. I played a ton of sites until I felt I was ready to go.

My first love is mahjong and I NEVER play that game for real money. I just don't think I'm that good. I play on a Japanese site where people play to get their names on a leader board.
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Pyroxene
Old 08-02-2006, 01:30 AM #258 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
You can find play money tables at Stars with better players than the rank and file at P@cific.
Now you are doing exactly what many critized AoK for doing. You are defending your system on the basis that there are places where it would work. When AoK says that you need high VP$IP, high Player/Flop tables for 19 card, people said that was no good because most tables are not like that. It would be silly for me to dismiss your idea of learning at a play money table that acts like real poker by saying, "This is a bad idea because most play money tables are not like that." If someone can find a play money table that actually plays like normal poker, than by all means feel free to use it to learn.

My experience with play money and micro stakes is that the players do not play in accordance with one of the most fundamental concepts of poker: "All poker starts as a struggle for the antes." - Sklansky TToP pg. 27. At the play and micro stakes all I have ever seen is 15BB+ average opening raises and 2+ callers. That is not poker, it is bingo. There is no reason to risk 15+% of your stack to gain 1.5% of your stack.
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jackvance
Old 08-02-2006, 01:35 AM #259 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
3. It is a great confidence builder.
Lol.. yeah great to have some fake confidence in your ability to play poker, excellent set-up to go play for real money!
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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LeFou
Old 08-02-2006, 01:49 AM #260 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyroxene
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
You can find play money tables at Stars with better players than the rank and file at P@cific.
Now you are doing exactly what many critized AoK for doing.
I think this is dead-on. I also loved your above post, Pyroxene. Yakuman, it appears to me that you are hounding aok for little or no reason. I'm not his disciple, in fact I haven't even seen this postflop chart.

But your contention (if I've got it right) is that practicing/training/whatever you want to call it is more beneficial on play-money tables than on microlimit tables with a "system"? I find that so hard to believe that I assume you're just being contrarian...
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Warpe
Old 08-02-2006, 02:00 AM #261 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
1. It teaches you to get comfortable with the software, to play only good hands, to be disciplined, etc. Especially discipline, because it's the most important thing to learn.
Nobody learns discipline at a play money table. Quite the opposite, in fact.



 
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Halv
Old 08-02-2006, 02:00 AM #262 (permalink)  
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 I for one am training on 50NL tables at the moment.

For the love of God at least deposit 40 bucks and play nanos. You'll have 10 buyins at 0.02/0.04, if you have read anything at all about poker you should be able to not go busto.

By having a couple of bucks at stake you'll learn something very important; the gruelling feeling of losing money and how to deal with it. No matter how good your play money friends are, you won't get that feeling.

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LeFou
Old 08-02-2006, 02:35 AM #263 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvSame
By having a couple of bucks at stake you'll learn something very important; the gruelling feeling of losing money and how to deal with it. No matter how good your play money friends are, you won't get that feeling.
And something (I think) even more important, or at least even more 'nuts-and-bolts': you'll learn how to read the actions of players who have something at stake. Reading is a fundamental poker skill, and if your head bursts trying to figure out opponents' rationale in play-money games, don't say I didn't warn you.
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aokrongly
Old 08-02-2006, 02:50 AM     Post subject: ... #264 (permalink)  
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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 02:54 AM #265 (permalink)  

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The idea that people should pump hundreds of dollars "learning" at micro-limits is just nuts. If you're going to throw money at unwinnable bets, try Laughlin. They have good room rates there.
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Warpe
Old 08-02-2006, 03:07 AM #266 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
The idea that people should pump hundreds of dollars "learning" at micro-limits is just nuts. If you're going to throw money at unwinnable bets, try Laughlin. They have good room rates there.
There are players on FTR who have made one deposit and never looked back. The reality is that one does not learn how to play real poker until it is played for real money. It is as simple as that. In fact, there is a great deal of unlearning to be done in the transition to real money, to get rid of many of the monkey-see-monkey-do bad habits that get picked up on play money tables. Anyone who thinks they can become a competent, winning player learning on play money tables is an unadulterated idiot.



 
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Halv
Old 08-02-2006, 03:42 AM #267 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
If you're going to throw money at unwinnable bets, try Laughlin.
If you're saying what I'm think you're saying, I'm gonna have myself a good laugh and never post in this thread again.

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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 03:46 AM #268 (permalink)  

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"One does not learn how to play real poker until it is played for real money..."

Plenty of people play mahjong, backgammon and gin rummy with nothing at stake. Why is poker special? In fact, lots of people play wild card dealer's choice poker with real money -- and those games are a joke. So this argument does not follow.

Poker Academy runs a private play money server for people who register their pro software. Those people take the game seriously, because they don't want to donk it away at real money. www.poker-academy.com

"Any one who thinks they can become a competent, winning player learning on play money tables is an unadulterated idiot."

Well, I did. I've never lost my initial deposit, either -- and I've spent way more on poker books than on Neteller. That last factor is probably what made the difference.

If somebody can't beat the nanostakes, then he'd better go to play money -- or quit poker. I'm not actually arguing the virtues of play money, but it sure beats being the table donator.

Plus, I don't think the play money at Stars is worse than P@cific. In fact, many tables are better. You can't put P@cific players on hands, either.
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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 04:00 AM #269 (permalink)  

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"If you're saying what I'm think you're saying, I'm gonna have myself a good laugh and never post in this thread again."

I don't think people should deliberately set out to be fish. If I'm gonna donk away money, I'd rather be in Laughlin, where they'll at least have free drinks and cute cocktail waitresses.
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Wooderson
Old 08-02-2006, 04:05 AM #270 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
I don't think people should deliberately set out to be fish.
In so many words, no they don't. But most people also don't set out to learn the intricacies of the game and become phenoms. They just want to have fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
Plenty of people play mahjong, backgammon and gin rummy with nothing at stake. Why is poker special? In fact, lots of people play wild card dealer's choice poker with real money -- and those games are a joke. So this argument does not follow.

Poker Academy runs a private play money server for people who register their pro software. Those people take the game seriously, because they don't want to donk it away at real money. www.poker-academy.com
Why is poker special? Hmm... WPT. WSOP. PPT. All the other poker television shows. When was the last time backgammon (a game I love), gin rummy (another game I love) or mahjong (a third game I love) were paraded around on television for money and celebrity that can be won by an Ordinary Joe? Tens of thousands of people have happily made large deposits at poker sites around the globe because of the dream. I would argue that the grand majority have no designs on studying the game to improve substantially. Many do a bit... they "hack" at it and learn a few things but I'd be willing to wager that those folks are mostly gambling as opposed to making educated decisions. Their aim isn't really to get better at poker, it's to have fun, kill time and if they win money or not, who cares? It's like the movies - they pay for the entertainment.

Poker Acadamy is a totally different beast than PokerStars play money tables. Poker Acadamy is relatively costly and only bought by people for one reason: to get better at poker as opposed to be entertained.

Lookit - I have a feeling no-one will convince you of anything because every arguement you make is from an ivory tower of idealism, and we do not live in nor play poker in an idealized world.
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aokrongly
Old 08-02-2006, 04:06 AM     Post subject: ... #271 (permalink)  
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Halv
Old 08-02-2006, 04:13 AM #272 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
"If you're saying what I'm think you're saying, I'm gonna have myself a good laugh and never post in this thread again."

I don't think people should deliberately set out to be fish. If I'm gonna donk away money, I'd rather be in Laughlin, where they'll at least have free drinks and cute cocktail waitresses.
Okay, my misunderstanding. Of course no one is going to deliberately set out to be a fish, I don't know where you got that from?

But I know that I'd be much more content being a semi-fish (say 1BB/100) at the micros than a shark at the play money tables. To suggest that anyone is better off learning on their own with play money rather than starting off with a winning system at the micros is just silly, no matter how much the system might slow down your learning curve.

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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 04:34 AM #273 (permalink)  

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"The Main Principle of Performance Poker is to create a winning system FOR THE CONDITIONS that exist."

If I remember Efficient Markets theory correctly, any system that bests the market is, once discovered, quickly priced into that market. So the edge diminishess.

Malkiel, Burton G. A Random Walk Down Wall Street (7th ed.). New York, NY: WW Norton,. 1999.
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Halv
Old 08-02-2006, 04:41 AM #274 (permalink)  
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 How is that related to poker? Do you think the fish market is going to change? Most fish are fish because they don't bother studying to move up the food chain. They aren't going to adapt to the market. Edit; that is, they aren't going to discover the system.

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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 04:57 AM #275 (permalink)  

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"Why is poker special? Hmm... WPT. WSOP. PPT. All the other poker television shows."

They have mahjong on TV in Japan, plus manga, anime and an amazing amount of pornography. And there were fish at poker decades ago.

"Tens of thousands of people have happily made large deposits at poker sites around the globe because of the dream."

Then why are so many sites that target US players rock gardens? And why are the sites that ban Americans such fish tanks?

Many people who want to goof off will download the .net version of the software and never even see a real money money table, at least in the US.

"Poker Acadamy is relatively costly and only bought... to get better at poker."

PA is what? $120? That's not alot compared to a decent deposit, which is kinda what I was saying.

"Every arguement [sic] you make is from an ivory tower of idealism"

Uh, I'm the skeptic. AOK is the idealist. I think poker is hard.
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aokrongly
Old 08-02-2006, 04:58 AM     Post subject: ... #276 (permalink)  
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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 05:08 AM #277 (permalink)  

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"How is that related to poker? Do you think the fish market is going to change?"

Yes. More and more players are learning the ropes. More and more good players are able to multitable on more sites. So the game gets harder. Party gets consistently tighter, for example.

Also, say a system DOES come out that can smash Party 25NL. As more people will adopt that strategy. those tables will become rockier. Simple logic.

"Most fish are fish because they don't bother studying to move up the food chain."

Yes, but over time the number of rocks and TAGs goes up too. Plus, they multitable. So there is more competition for the fish.
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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 05:18 AM #278 (permalink)  

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"(Siting the reference is the funniest thing I've seen on FTR in a long time, though. That's a classic. 7th ed. rofl)"

I forgot. You don't like books with all that theory. You like easy answers to difficult questions. Now wonder you admire Tony Robbins.

You've already said what you think of poker books. You don't like those ivory tower intellectuals like Doyle Brunson and TJ Clutier.

"And at NL10, and NL25 it's not that hard to win $300-$500 per month."

We discussed this before. The winrate per hour is McMoney. If you're looking for an income source, it is quite an, um, grind.
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Yakuman
Old 08-02-2006, 05:26 AM #279 (permalink)  

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One last post. There's a post on another forum that sums up the problem with the theory behind Performance Poker:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...?Number=462860

It deals with limit poker, but you can get the idea. The summary is "WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET!"

NOTE TO AOK: This post is by Ed Miller, one of those "Ivory Tower" members of the "Poker Priesthood." Parental discretion is advised.
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Halv
Old 08-02-2006, 05:45 AM #280 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
One last post. There's a post on another forum that sums up the problem with the theory behind Performance Poker:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...?Number=462860

It deals with limit poker, but you can get the idea. The summary is "WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET!"

NOTE TO AOK: This post is by Ed Miller, one of those "Ivory Tower" members of the "Poker Priesthood." Parental discretion is advised.
I believe that idea originally comes from TOP (I didn't bother to read the thread). Anyway, it is obvious that a limit fold is a much bigger mistake than a NL fold, simply because the bet size in relation to the pot size is much smaller in limit.

The whole idea with 19-hand (I haven't looked into the other aspects of PP) is that you're playing loose passive opponents (remember the conditions he talks about so much?) and that these opponents rarely play back at you. The system is designed to keep you from making bad calls rather than teach you how to make good ones, which will show a profit under said conditions.

Miller, on the other hand, is usually referring to higher stakes and tougher opponents, where the edges have to be pushed harder and more often.

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Old 08-02-2006, 05:51 AM #281 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
One last post. There's a post on another forum that sums up the problem with the theory behind Performance Poker:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...?Number=462860

It deals with limit poker, but you can get the idea. The summary is "WHEN THE POT IS BIG DO NOT FOLD DECENT HANDS FOR ONE BET!"

NOTE TO AOK: This post is by Ed Miller, one of those "Ivory Tower" members of the "Poker Priesthood." Parental discretion is advised.
It's absurd to compare 1 BB calldown 20:1 odds (LHE) with something like 50BB potsized river bet in no-limit. When you play such a big pot with medium/marginal hand, you MUST have a read to make profitable decision. In LHE, OTOH, calling 1BB to showdown in 20BB pot is actually no-brainer with any decent hand.

But still Ed Miller gave excellent advice for LHE. Actually Ed is not "one of members", he's more like Master Wizard.

Yes, raw PerformPoker strat is very weak tight but the way to improve it has nothing to do with Ed Miller's LHE post. Totally different reasons to make calldowns/reraises with light hands.
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:06 AM     Post subject: ... #282 (permalink)  
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:23 AM #283 (permalink)  
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All,

If you disagree with aok's system, then by all means make constructive criticism about it.

If you dislike aok, the person, then stop posting in this thread, as you are inadvertantly bumping it and advertising his site even more.

Peace.
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:31 AM     Post subject: ... #284 (permalink)  
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Old 08-02-2006, 07:18 AM #285 (permalink)  
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Geez, Yakuman, you've got this (generally-interesting) thread to a damn-near-lockable state.

"Any monkey could beat microstakes" turns into "The idea that people should pump hundreds of dollars "learning" at micro-limits is just nuts". And so on and so on. Linking to an ancient (if classic) 2+2 thread (which is about *limit hold 'em). The Efficient Market Hypothesis?!?! Are you kidding?!?! Why are you going to these extreme lengths to denigrate aok's work?
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:51 PM     Post subject: ... #286 (permalink)  
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Yakuman
Old 08-03-2006, 06:38 AM #287 (permalink)  

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At the risk of agreeing with AOK, I think people should know what % of flops they're seeing. I can be easily done with pad and paper.

(If you care, I typically run about 17% of hands. Running loose, I do about 23%. Tight runs around 7%. At my most maniacal, I'll see 30% of hands, which is rocky enough to land me in Stonehenge.)

About suited connectors: They and suited aces are the keys to the gold mine on a site like P@cific. I'd be much more interested in them than some of AOK's darlings like AJo and KJo.

As far as giving him publicity, I don't know that I care. Right now, he seems intent on throwing rocks into the pond over at P@cific. I don't play there, nor do I wish it on my worst enemies, so it doesn't affcet me.
If AOK is after money -- and I'm not convinced that he is -- I'd like to remind him that there's more moolah to be made at the tables than as a poker guru. In fact, some of the pros write books just to improve their table image.
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Yakuman
Old 08-03-2006, 07:05 AM #288 (permalink)  

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"Any monkey could beat microstakes"

Seriously, is there anyone reading this who CAN'T at least run positive at NL10? Is it that hard?

""The idea that people should pump hundreds of dollars learning at micro-limits is just nuts"

Apples and oranges. I was trying to shoot down the idea that people necessarily need a lot of "on-the-job" training before they stop playing like a fish.

That people just jump in unprepared and hit the NL25 at Party is great for the multitabling rocks, but really bad for them.

You know those college students who cry to their local newspaper about how they donked away their student loans?
Or the guy who claims "identity theft," when thousands of dollars just happened to wind up transferred to Neteller? They come from these ranks.
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Halv
Old 08-03-2006, 12:33 PM #289 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman
"Any monkey could beat microstakes"

Seriously, is there anyone reading this who CAN'T at least run positive at NL10? Is it that hard?

""The idea that people should pump hundreds of dollars learning at micro-limits is just nuts"

Apples and oranges. I was trying to shoot down the idea that people necessarily need a lot of "on-the-job" training before they stop playing like a fish.

That people just jump in unprepared and hit the NL25 at Party is great for the multitabling rocks, but really bad for them.

You know those college students who cry to their local newspaper about how they donked away their student loans?
Or the guy who claims "identity theft," when thousands of dollars just happened to wind up transferred to Neteller? They come from these ranks.
... which is exactly why aok made the system, to ease these fish (the ones that are clever enough to find the site, mind you) into the game.

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Renton
Old 08-03-2006, 02:37 PM #290 (permalink)  
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 Yakuman, yes there are people who can't run positive at NL10. My roommate, a very intelligent person whom I tried to train at poker, couldn't beat 25nl on party. He mostly ran bad, but he played kinda bad too.

I am getting really tired of people saying that its impossible to not lose at microstakes. Its very possible. In fact, in some ways microstakes (.1, .25, .50) are tougher to beat than mid to high stakes games (1,2,4,6) because the players are just so unreadible.

You guys are making it sound like any braindead vegetable can log on to Party Poker and make 12 dollars an hour playing poker, without any prior training or loss. It just isn't true.

The only beef us intelligent beefers have with AOK's system is that it tries to explain postflop with a chart (not possible), and that many of the staple techniques within the system are pretty much illogical when looked at through a tight-aggressive-aggressive lens.

Then again, when whomever back in the day said "Raise before the flop with any reasonable hand, and bet every single heads up flop whether you hit or miss.", people probably thought he was crazy. The game was so weaktight up to that point that it seemed irrational to be that aggressive.

Fuck, maybe weaktightpassive will be the new wave of poker sharks. Who knows. You have to look at this with an open mind, thats all.

I just wish that the haters would stop hating, so this debate would get somewhere.
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aokrongly
Old 08-03-2006, 03:10 PM     Post subject: ... #291 (permalink)  
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:31 PM #292 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Anybody up for this discussion instead of the same old argument?
I think the main problem with starting this discussion in relation to 19-hand is that certain elements like position and odds are not emphasized in 19-hand but are hugely important when playing drawing hands. This discussion is probably best left for a different thread.

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Yakuman
Old 08-03-2006, 04:00 PM #293 (permalink)  

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"I am getting really tired of people saying that its impossible to not lose at microstakes..."

I don't say that. My actual words were "Is there anyone reading this who CAN'T at least run positive at NL10?" You were talking about somebody not beating NL25, which is one notch higher. You misquoted me, then called me a "hater."
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Warpe
Old 08-03-2006, 04:30 PM #294 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Anybody up for this discussion instead of the same old argument?
The discussion I would be up for is to address the same old criticisms that come up again and again and again and actually improve your 19 hand system, but something tells me you're not open to that. Which is why this discussion constantly goes around in circles.



 
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Old 08-03-2006, 06:29 PM #295 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Anybody up for this discussion instead of the same old argument?
The discussion I would be up for is to address the same old criticisms that come up again and again and again and actually improve your 19 hand system, but something tells me you're not open to that. Which is why this discussion constantly goes around in circles.
Stop wanting 19 Hand to be more than it is and the cycle will be broken. Only the salmon spawns upstream, and Warpe, you are no fish.

Now I would enjoy seeing the next iteration of Performance Poker to see how it is different than 19 Hand.
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Vrax
Old 08-03-2006, 06:49 PM #296 (permalink)  
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Can we discuss the KJ and AJ vs Axs and suited connectors. My logic in choosing one over the other is what I think is the common problem that players play Axs (or other drawing hands) and then forget why they got into the hand in the first place and end up pay the winner off just because they hit a pair with a crappy kicker. Or they overpay for their draw. But I'm happy to discuss the different pro's/cons of one vs the other.
Despite of "attack/defence" style and fiery criticism of both sides, this is one of the best discussions I saw on FTR. DaNutsInYoEye and Aokrongly...props to both of you guys.

ok, here's go my opinion:

Hands like KJ, AJ, AT (mainly offsuit "broadways") are known to have reasonable chance of preflop pot equity against given number of random hands. They win showdowns more often than not. But there is a problem in NL, because % of winning SD means little, especially if game resembles "aggressive". Offsuit broadways are good non-multiway LHE hands. But in "pressure oriented" game like NL or PL, thinking in terms of preflop percantage of winning showdowns and preflop "direct pot odds" (not implied/reverse implied) is actually useless.

Recently I got Sklansky's new book and there is simple preflop crashcourse for getting started, WITHOUT offsuit broadways in early and mid positions. AJos is default open fold from any position, KJ is crappy hand and worse than Q9s because it hardly takes any pressure. Flush-draw or OESD can played even for stacks as semibluff but something like TPGK in limped pot is not much better than TPNK or middle pair because if you get action on flop, it's most likely from something better than top pair - and if someone has worse hand, he will fold it on flop because of implied threat. You can beat only a draw, nothing more. Once in a while you will catch some sucker that overplays his TPNK and you will win small/moderate pot or lose moderate/big pot if he pairs his kicker or gets his flush. The only big pot you win if you and opponent pair both of cards, and he will still be reluctant to go broke in unraised pot with two pairs. But flush against flush or low end of straight against high end - he will gladly go AI drawing stone cold dead.

I liked one of Sklansky's basic concepts: "in deep-stack NL cash game you play hands that can extract lot of money POSTFLOP - big pot hands".


Quote:
As you know I'm not a pure odds player, so what are the odds of flopping TP with AJ or KJ vs the odds of flopping a flush draw with Axs. We'll assume that both of these are limping hands that won't be played in a raised pot. (however, once we see what the true odds are, we may decide that Axs is worth playing in other situations. who knows.)
TP with AJ/KJ is about 30%, slightly worse than TPTK from Slick.
Flopping any flushdraw with Ax is about 10% (tainted paired boards included).

Axs is definitely worth playing against small raise, especially with good relative position and multiway pot. Flushes, Aces-up or better (and nail TPTK the same way as with set) , NFD+overcard draw, combo draws ets.
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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LeFou
Old 08-03-2006, 07:34 PM #297 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrax
something like TPGK in limped pot is not much better than TPNK or middle pair because if you get action on flop, it's most likely from something better than top pair - and if someone has worse hand, he will fold it on flop because of implied threat. You can beat only a draw, nothing more. Once in a while you will catch some sucker that overplays his TPNK and you will win small/moderate pot or lose moderate/big pot if he pairs his kicker or gets his flush
I think you're basically right but this is overstate. If you catch a sucker who overplays TPNK you're going to get a nice pot, not a small/moderate one. At 10NL and occasionally at 25NL, you will frequuently stack Axo. You'll see (and stack) Kxs less frequently but not-never.

Hitting the J with your A or K is not as profitable, but you'll still get some pay from Jxx where opp has a pp < J and joes refuses to believe you.

By this I only mean to qualify your very good arguments.
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Vrax
Old 08-03-2006, 07:52 PM #298 (permalink)  
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At 10NL and occasionally at 25NL, you will frequuently stack Axo. You'll see (and stack) Kxs less frequently but not-never.
Good point Lefou, but it's all depends on stack sizes. You will win decent pot but that's it - just decent 20BB pot if you are lucky enough to not run into set or 2 pair, dodge all straight and flush draws and turn/river bluffs. It's hard in crazy aggressive game, wherther tight or loose.

You have AdJh against your loose-passive opponent. 100BB, covered.

Board Ah6c7cc You bet he calls. Turn is 5,6,7,8 or a club.

Are you willing to go 100BB with him ?

Or, let's go back to flop. You pot the flop, some average player raises it. You are in trouble, only if he has draw, you are ahead and it's not "way ahead". In LHE you can go to showdown and expect it to win more than your fair share but in NL you are toasted more often than not.
Only if opponent is very shortstacked, you have easy decision and can go comfortably for showdown. And if you "destack" him from his mere 10-20BB, you still win "just moderate pot".

Even on 25NL I rarely see someone going broke with TPNK for full stack. It's difference between bad player and absolute sucker. Bad player will stick around and maybe make some loose flop/turn call (if it's not too big)but only total sucker will consitently go broke with that hand.
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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aokrongly
Old 08-03-2006, 10:09 PM     Post subject: ... #299 (permalink)  
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:51 PM #300 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
Wouldn't you say the discussion of destacking another player is kind of moot. Stack size pots are generally made with two better than TPTK hands, or someone who decides to put his stack behind a draw against someone who knows the other guy is on the draw. Other than that, it's just when you see someone tilt off for whatever reason. Wouldn't you agree with that.
Absolutely true. NL cash game is about winning max money, not destacking particular players. Getting call + overcall 30BB each is worth more than 40BB single call and destack. In tourney things may be different but in ring it's flat-out "winning the max, not care about busting someone or not".


Quote:
We're talking essentially about not the greatest hands in the world, so if you're going to win more than a 20BB stack with them it will be in a special circumstance. KJ where you make a straight and the other guy has AT(2 pair) for instance.

Axs you're not stacking people with either I would think, unless they have Kx of the same suit or something. It's pretty easy to spot the flush draw, generally. The way you mix that up is by masking your hand with a non-odds giving bet (which is possible).
You CAN win big pots with sooted Aces, even stack people for 100BB without flush.

You have A5s, opponent has 56s. Unraised pot.

Boards:
A56, 55x : you will win a large chunk of his stack.
66x: he'll win nothing from you
A66: he will win nothing from you or maybe small flop bet
A556: you will bust him
A5566 and you both have lots of money behind - you realize that your boat has been counterfeited and you lay it down or showdown for cheap. Opponents play poor postflop and won't make such a laydown. CptZeebo's fullhose theory
556: well...it's like AA against set. That's poker.

Raised pot:

You can open-raise Axs for deception, just like AK but if Ace flops, treat it as "moderate hand" and try to show it down cheaply using pot control. This play is designed to get more turn calls in the future from weak kickers when you have "true" TPTK.

With flushdraw in position it's also very easy to play especially if you are PF aggressor and it gets checked around. Also having Ace as overcard can help if someone with JJ will call your AI semibluff.


Quote:
In normal play beginners aren't playing either of these hands aggressively preflop.
They don't need to play it aggro...yet They just must be more smart postflop and play actual "poker" with putting people on hands. It's not a big mistake to fold weak marginal hand (tpnk) in small pot, so newbiez can play it only for Aces up+ and flushes and c/f TPNK.

Quote:
If you can make a case for raising Axs in a limp pot with position then you can make a case for raising KJ0. Both have the same logic, I would think.
Multilimpers and position...well it's a bit different situation. I think in this situation big raise with KJ and trying to pick-up dead money is more reasonable because KJ, AJ ets. hate drawing boards, and like heads-up situation. A5s is a bit different. Pounding limps and huge c-bet on flop has its merits but I think it's waste of Axs. Let's say you have A5 on button and face 5 limpers + SB completes with wide range and your opponents play poorly postflop. Why try to fold out someone with 76, or 54 when he has deep stack and can pay you off on 55x board or flush board?

Comments?
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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