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Never slowplay a set.

  
 
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TalentedTom
Old 04-07-2006, 03:24 AM     Post subject: Never slowplay a set. #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars Game #4542334683: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/04/06 - 18:43:39 (ET)
Table 'Peiroos II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Hems3333 ($296 in chips)
Seat 2: Raaif ($426.20 in chips)
Seat 3: tmanfoo ($602.70 in chips)
Seat 4: wildboar ($501.35 in chips)
Seat 5: TalentedTom ($579.15 in chips)
Seat 6: blustars ($100 in chips)
Seat 7: wingnprayer ($476.55 in chips)
Seat 8: menexus ($429.50 in chips)
Seat 9: hitimes ace ($410 in chips)
wingnprayer: posts small blind $2
menexus: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [3d 3h]
hitimes ace: folds
Hems3333: folds
Raaif: folds
tmanfoo: calls $4
wildboar: folds
TalentedTom: raises $12 to $16
blustars: folds
wingnprayer: calls $14
menexus: folds
tmanfoo: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [4h 6c 2h]
wingnprayer: checks
tmanfoo: checks
TalentedTom: bets $32
wingnprayer: folds
tmanfoo: calls $32
*** TURN *** [4h 6c 2h] [9c]
tmanfoo: bets $60
TalentedTom: calls $60
*** RIVER *** [4h 6c 2h 9c] [5s]
tmanfoo: checks
TalentedTom: bets $200
tmanfoo: raises $200 to $400
TalentedTom: raises $71.15 to $471.15 and is all-in
tmanfoo: calls $71.15
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TalentedTom: shows [3d 3h] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
tmanfoo: mucks hand
TalentedTom collected $1175.30 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1178.30 | Rake $3
Board [4h 6c 2h 9c 5s]
Seat 1: Hems3333 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Raaif folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: tmanfoo mucked [2d 2s]
Seat 4: wildboar folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TalentedTom showed [3d 3h] and won ($1175.30) with a straight, Deuce to Six
Seat 6: blustars (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: wingnprayer (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: menexus (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: hitimes ace folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Or this could be you. =)
Tom.S
 
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 04-07-2006, 05:46 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I concur.
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AHiltz
Old 04-07-2006, 02:52 PM #3 (permalink)  
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This should be in Tales of Poker. Nice suckout.
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ensign_lee
Old 04-07-2006, 04:21 PM #4 (permalink)  
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How was he slowplaying? He was putting money into the pot on every street. His only mistake was perhaps not raising you on the flop, since he was going to lead the turn anyway.

and why were you calling on the turn?!?!

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Fnord
Old 04-07-2006, 04:24 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensign_lee
why were you calling on the turn?!?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Miffed22001
Old 04-07-2006, 05:05 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 i love people at any limit who cold call flop bets trying to play bigger pots on later streets.
Its so transparent!
when they raise on later streets anyway players should know how the game dynamic is changing to dump anything but a monster or try to show down a semi-monster or hidden hand.
This is just a great example. Nh sir! BWNED
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The Professor
Old 04-07-2006, 06:13 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Villian really should have bet more on the turn? He's letting 2 hearts draw for cheap? Is he afraid? Board is rather coordinated.
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AHiltz
Old 04-07-2006, 06:25 PM #8 (permalink)  
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~ 2.9 : 1 for a call on the turn. He gave good incorrect odds
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dpe8598
Old 04-07-2006, 06:43 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I slow play a set when I'm playing against a very good player that will fold to bets, but will come after me if I show weakness.

Otherwise, in general, fire out!
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bigboy5540
Old 04-08-2006, 12:01 AM #10 (permalink)  
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never slow play set? lmao. and the villian wasnt even really slowplaying. you were donking chips to him with very little odds and got very very very lucky.
im good at poker
 
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TalentedTom
Old 04-08-2006, 02:59 AM #11 (permalink)  
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I have about 24% pot equity on the flop against his hand... meaning I can call up to 24% of my chips on the flop/turn (combined) and as long as I stack him my play will be +EV.

I can call for a grand total of $139.

Flop $32, turn $60, Total = $92

very +EV.
Tom.S
 
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Fnord
Old 04-08-2006, 03:27 AM #12 (permalink)  
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That's results oriented.

What's your equity against his range?
How often do you really get his stack with the best of it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Greedo017
Old 04-08-2006, 03:29 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 "I have about 24% pot equity on the flop against his hand... meaning I can call up to 24% of my chips on the flop/turn (combined) and as long as I stack him my play will be +EV."


this is not true. according to this logic, if you check the flop then he bets 130 on the turn, you can call. your odds on the flop and turn don't combine at all.

on the turn you're 13% to win and need to be pulling in ~350 on the river in order to call the 60 and still break even in equity. so pretty much this is pretty -EV because you're not going to make 350 every time and its more likely that you'll get much less than 350 in on the river, when the most over you can get is 100.

edit: i also wanted to add, your flop bet is probably -EV also unless you think you have some pretty good fold equity. combining the flop and turn is very -EV IMO.
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boost
Old 04-08-2006, 03:15 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpe8598
I slow play a set when I'm playing against a very good player that will fold to bets, but will come after me if I show weakness.

Otherwise, in general, fire out!
why would you slow play a set vs a good op? if hes not gonna put more money in the pot on the flop, why would he put more on the turn or river? What could he be drawing to thats gonna have him putting in more money vs you? Its mostly going to be something that beats you. And if hes drawing to something that does beat you, such as TPTK, well then weve already said that hes good, and hes not paying you off. If hes drawing to top 2 pair or something, then he would most likely call your flop bet anyways, and when he hits then you get his stack. But when you slow play it, the pot isnt big enough to stack him.

there are VERY few times where it makes any sense to slow play a set. And if you have a hard time figuring out when those times are, you probably just shouldnt do it.
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boost
Old 04-08-2006, 03:15 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpe8598
I slow play a set when I'm playing against a very good player that will fold to bets, but will come after me if I show weakness.

Otherwise, in general, fire out!
why would you slow play a set vs a good op? if hes not gonna put more money in the pot on the flop, why would he put more on the turn or river? What could he be drawing to thats gonna have him putting in more money vs you? Its mostly going to be something that beats you. And if hes drawing to something that does beat you, such as TPTK, well then weve already said that hes good, and hes not paying you off. If hes drawing to top 2 pair or something, then he would most likely call your flop bet anyways, and when he hits then you get his stack. But when you slow play it, the pot isnt big enough to stack him.

there are VERY few times where it makes any sense to slow play a set. And if you have a hard time figuring out when those times are, you probably just shouldnt do it.
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TalentedTom
Old 04-08-2006, 05:44 PM #16 (permalink)  
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<--- likes to gambooool
Tom.S
 
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dpe8598
Old 04-08-2006, 05:51 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Boost, I'm not using a good player in the general way, I specified a good player that will fold if I show strength and be aggressive if I show weakness. This player does exist. Therefore, in rare cases I will slow play my set (I'm also looking for a flop w/ a good texture, I don't want to see any straight or flush draws) in order to induce a bet from him on the turn. Also, an extra card might make him stronger (but not stronger than me, remember I'm only slow playing favorable textures).
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bigboy5540
Old 04-08-2006, 08:44 PM #18 (permalink)  
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i agree with greedo and fnord's posts completely. talented tom donked off chips and got very lucky. anyway, slowplaying a set can pay off big depending on the opponent of course. If the opponent has any piece of the flop if would probably be best not to slowplay.
im good at poker
 
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Krieg1984
Old 04-09-2006, 08:57 AM #19 (permalink)  
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In general, I think it's incorrect to slowplay a strong hand if

A) you have a tight, conservative image

or

B) your opponent is tight.

Of course there are plenty of other situations in which slowplaying is incorrect.

A) When you are playing against a decent opponent and you are just calling for large amounts of money you are fooling no one. It pretty easy for people to put you on hands. For example you raise with QQ UTG+1 and a 25/12 who has you covered reraises on the CO (200bb deep stacks), you decide to just call. Flop comes Q74 rainbow. You check, he fires out a pot bet, you call. What is he going to put you on? a 65 doesn't fit your range and there is no obvious draw. If I'm Villian, I'm putting you on a set or overpair. I'm not investing any more money into this pot.

B) It's often dangerous to slowplay against a tight villian because he probably won't put money into the pot on later streets unless he makes a hand that beats you. It took me awhile to learn this concept... the hard way, too.
Lukie: "Yo Fnord I was playing omaha earlier"
Lukie: "I got dealt quads"
Lukie: "but everyone folded to my raise "
Lukie: "I was going to pwn everyone"
Fnord: "Gotta slowplay them big hands man..."
 
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homeboy604
Old 04-11-2006, 04:03 PM #20 (permalink)  
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I wouldnt say Never slow play a set. there's definitely times for it, but they're the minority.
the advantages to fast playing are huge. its hard for your opponent to judge the strength of your hand. you could have tptk, or if you bet into your draws it makes it even harder.
however, say you have a low pair set, and the board is not dangerous at all, AND you're against an overly aggressive opponent then you can slow play.
the other situation, is when you're sure your opponent has a semi strong hand but you know that the draws out there cant help them, and theres 2 to the flush or str8 out there, AND they think you're on a draw and are aware of giving bad odds to draw.
you will extract far more money from the hand this way then if the draw wasnt out there.
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RiverMonkey
Old 04-11-2006, 07:47 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Yes, slow playing a set if rarely a good play. But ......

..... let's be clear, there's never any 'nevers' in poker, nor are there any 'always'. (and all you smart asses out that all know that I don't mean garbage counter examples like AA always wins at showdown against KK when the board is 39J27 where neither player has a flush ).

In this hand, the opponent (read as: victim of bad suckage) didn't really slow-play his or her set. And the hero (read as: player who was obviously very confused about this hand), didn't exploit that opponent's play.
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shysti
Old 04-11-2006, 08:15 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
"I have about 24% pot equity on the flop against his hand... meaning I can call up to 24% of my chips on the flop/turn (combined) and as long as I stack him my play will be +EV."


this is not true. according to this logic, if you check the flop then he bets 130 on the turn, you can call. your odds on the flop and turn don't combine at all.

on the turn you're 13% to win and need to be pulling in ~350 on the river in order to call the 60 and still break even in equity. so pretty much this is pretty -EV because you're not going to make 350 every time and its more likely that you'll get much less than 350 in on the river, when the most over you can get is 100.

edit: i also wanted to add, your flop bet is probably -EV also unless you think you have some pretty good fold equity. combining the flop and turn is very -EV IMO.
I guess I need to get to this level to understand what you just talked about
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