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Need advice adjusting to EXTREMELY loose players

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oskar

10-28-2008, 03:20 PM Post subject: Need advice adjusting to EXTREMELY loose players

#1 (permalink)

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So I cashed out 30$ on party and put 20€ on win2day. It's an austrians-only site, and theoretically the only one that is legal for us to play on.
Turns out you have to be legally retarded to play anywhere else if you live in austria.
The players are so bad, there is no word for it. Unfortunately the lowest stakes are .05/.10 but it plays like high-stakes playmoney.
Rake is consistently 5% across all games.
I spectated the highest stakes tables which are 2/4 and 5/10 at the moment - and they appear to be at the skill level of 10NL elsewhere - and still much looser.

So I've been learning to adjust to shortstackers and nutcampers for the last two years, and now I'm plunging into a pool of maniacs.

A standard raise of 4BB+1 gets consistently ~5 calls at FR.
Top pair, second pair and draws will stack off.
Average flops seen is > 50%
9 out of 10 players play full stacked and rebuy full.
Players have no concept of bet sizing, and are generally unable to read boards.

So... basic strategy has been to open AK+, JJ+ for 10bb+2 per limper. Never c-bet, never bluff, and I try to get it all-in by the turn.
There are usually 2 or 3 players who play tighter, but still very badly. Since it's virtually impossible to multi-table with the software it uses this hasn't been much of a problem - I can keep track of all the players.

So... BR management wise this is not so great. I'm thinking about half-stacking until I'm properly rolled on that site. I'm willing to reload, but I'll keep enough on Party for 5NL, so I can play myself up again if I go on a bad run.
I played a little bit of 0.5/0.1 PL 5-draw which I haven't for a long time. The 5-draw players are not so incredibly bad, so I only expect that to be marginally profitable - but it's less variance.

I don't have an incredibly solid idea how to play these people. I don't think a 10bb standard raise is bad if I can get 2-3 callers average with AK, JJ+
I'm sure I've folded the best hand a couple of times, but I'm not willing to go broke with KK on an A high board, even against these guys -
The standard situation is: I open KK, QQ, JJ in MP - 2 people call, overcard hits, I do not c-bet - and they bet every pair and every draw aggressively (about 70% of flops in this situations), and will not slow down when they get a call - which basically means I have to commit my whole stack if I decide to call on the flop.
So I guess I want TPTK or better if I don't want to join the crapshoot. - I'm pretty sure I can open that up a little once I have enough money behind.

The hand I'm a little worried about - if I should decide to shortstack is AK. If I open for €1,4 with 2 limpers, get 2 calls. Then I'm 1:3 to make TPTK with pretty good implied odds if I hit it. If I don't, I give it up and reload to €5.
Should be +EV enough, right?

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al yell

10-28-2008, 03:29 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 515

imo you'd be better off being properly rolled, buying in for 100bb and playing TAG/abc poker.

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oskar

10-28-2008, 03:41 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Loosing the 30$ will not hurt my roll on Party. The game is higher variance, but massively more +EV than party.
by TAG/abc I guess you mean making standard raises with standard ranges according to position. That will get almost half the table to call, and I end up with TP in a 5-way pot. That doesn't seem too good. ABC poker includes c-betting when I miss. Why would I c-bet if I get called with 3rd pair?

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frosst

10-28-2008, 03:59 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: count-n mah monies stewie-style

Posts: 220

if your raise is not getting respect, raise to a higher amount. that should weed a couple out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

Why would I c-bet if I get called with 3rd pair?

you wouldn't. if you're playing against a player who will call multiple streets with bottom pair, bluff less and value bet more.

oskar

10-28-2008, 04:33 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by frosst

if your raise is not getting respect, raise to a higher amount. that should weed a couple out.

The problem I see with doing that with a normal range is that it's exploitable by the few reasonable players.

I think I understand what I have to do, but it's like driving an english car... it feels really strange given that I've been playing mostly LAGG against Übernits on Party for most of my time.

pgil

10-28-2008, 06:05 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,103

its not really exploitable because you are playing a very strong range. The only thing they can do to exploit it is to play a stronger range back, or avoid your strong hands by folding. Besides, why would anyone try to exploit a standard tag when 3/4 of the table is loose and bad?

If your opponents love to bluff postflop, then you have to start calling lighter. If they are loose preflop, but play weak-tight postflop, then you need to raise a bit more and cbet a lot. If they are just loose-passive then value bet them to death, including thinner value bets than you would possibly imagine.

If you have experience playing a laggy game against nits, then you should understand what the lags are trying to do, and how they make money, and should be able to identify which spots you were most likely to lose money at, and turn those around on them.

If they are just absolutely horrible, then take a good hand and get all the money in. AQ unimproved can be a big winner against the right opponents.

"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce

oskar

10-28-2008, 06:50 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pgil

If your opponents love to bluff postflop, then you have to start calling lighter. If they are loose preflop, but play weak-tight postflop, then you need to raise a bit more and cbet a lot. If they are just loose-passive then value bet them to death, including thinner value bets than you would possibly imagine.

Yup I think that's pretty much what I'm trying to figure out.
One thing they have going for them is that everybody is playing his own game. So far I've always assumed standard play from my opponents until proven otherwise. Here I really have to pay attention from the moment I sit down to get maximum value.
A very common theme is that they play very loose PF, and just slightly looser than standard postflop.
It makes me appreciate the weak-tight players a little more. I think I underestimated how much I made by stealing blinds and bluffing.
So far it has been good to me. Will have to play some more to get some results.

kb coolman

10-29-2008, 01:00 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 596

I'll play at any small pots to keep from getting the 'rock' label and just sit it out. I find these player incredibly frustrating, but I also usually hit a HUGE pot if I can keep my head for an hour or two.

killerkebab

10-29-2008, 01:45 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2008

Posts: 149

Don't bluff so often.
Bet any fair hand for value.
Raise more preflop - if you think they'll call 10xBB, start raising 10xBB.

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