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My First Question: AJs

  
 
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Tripp Sixx
Old 05-26-2007, 07:11 PM     Post subject: My First Question: AJs #1 (permalink)  

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Tripp Sixx
Well, I've been reading over the board here for the past couple hours - hi, I'm new - and one thing so far has stuck out for me: AJs.

A few times now I've seen people say it's a trap hand, that you shouldn't call a raise with it, and one guy even said it was an autofold UTG.

I understand it's not a monster, but I certainly want to see a flop with it: it's a TPTK waiting to happen; it's a nut straight and nut flush draw; and it's a strong enough hand that if and when I play it with aggression I'm semi-bluffing at worst.

Make no mistake: I'm not saying I play it like I would KK or AA, or even QQ, but unless I'm facing two re-raises, or unless a raise is for 10-15% or more of my sack, I have no problem taking this to the flop.

Will someone grace me with a crash-course in playing AJs? What am I missing?
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biondino
Old 05-26-2007, 07:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Welcome to FTR!

If it helps, when I used to play full ring (because we are NOT folding it at 6max except in exceptional situations), AJs was my biggest loser - something like -1.6BB/hand.
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Tripp Sixx
Old 05-26-2007, 07:19 PM #3 (permalink)  

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Tripp Sixx
Thanks for the welcome, and, lol, yeah I guess that's one way to sum it up!
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Liam^
Old 05-26-2007, 09:17 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I'm new as well, but I'd tend to normally try and see the flop with AJs and AJo if I've got position. I'll fold it to too much agression though, this usually seems to mean Ace with a higher kicker and they aren't going to let you draw for the flush.
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DarnGoodPoker
Old 05-26-2007, 09:40 PM     Post subject: Re: My First Question: AJs #5 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripp Sixx
it's a TPTK waiting to happen;
What am I missing?
It's usually NOT top pair top kicker.
In fact it's usually top pair goes broke vs A-Q or A-K.

Simply put, consider it like this A-J = A-x

So UTG, in full ring, pretty much an autofold,
UTG in 6-max, also not worth calling a raise OOP
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Vrax
Old 05-26-2007, 11:24 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Don't open-fold AJs you nits

AJs plays much better than crappy AJo(which is early insta-muck in tough games) , because it's big pot hand. You can devastate shortstacks with high card strength but those types of hands really shine (big suited cards) with deep stacks and 4 full streets of betting. Open folding AJs is abysmal in any type of game.

When you flop something marginal (like top pair) you can underrepresent and try to win medium pots against floaters & position bullies. Nobody says, that you must fire three barrels with top pair. Play it postflop with attention to image, type of game etc.
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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MagyarSHU
Old 05-27-2007, 04:58 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Hello and welcome. Here's my two cents on AJs early 9 handed. I feel it's one of those hands that can go either way, but I lean towards folding more often than not. Alot of it depends on how the table has been playing though. Basically, what are your chances at seeing a cheap flop?

If you open limp, you encourage everyone else with a marginal hand to follow suit. If someone sticks in a raise behind you(and practices the gap concept), he's not going to raise into limpers with something weaker than AJs. You're likely looking at a stronger ace or a PP. Even if it's a very aggressive player, you're still behind on the coin flip (assuming it is a PP <JJ) AND he'll have position on you later in the hand to out maneuver you. You're dominated by AK/AQ and the JJ+PPs. Another problem is the higher PPs that dominate you also can play like AK/AQ if the opp cold calls you PF. If you flop an ace and bet, he may not belive you and call you with one of the bigger PPs to steal the pot away from you later. Could you stand a reraise with TP jack kicker from a solid caller?

If you open raise with AJs UTG, you're building a big pot which you could be a big underdog in...or collecting the blinds. The latter is a small benefit but outweighed by all the risks imho.

As to trapping if you hit TP ace kicker: there are too many hands out there which could be drawing to a better hand. With alot of limpers, people tend not to bet/call unless they have the nuts or a strong draw. That said, it would be an interesting move if you were planning on check/raising here, but that would depend on the table/hand texture.

I agree that UTG/early AJs might as well be Axs. If you're playing short-handed, or opening from a late position at a full table, AJs can be an intimidating hand. If you misplay the hand from early position, this is the type of hand where you can win a small pot or loose a big one. Do the risks outwiegh the rewards?
 
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DarnGoodPoker
Old 05-27-2007, 06:10 AM #8 (permalink)  

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DarnGoodPoker
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagyarSHU
If you open limp, you encourage everyone else with a marginal hand to follow suit. If someone sticks in a raise behind you(and practices the gap concept), he's not going to raise into limpers with something weaker than AJs. You're likely looking at a stronger ace or a PP.
That was a very well put post.
I just want to add to something though...

The Squeeze play.
THIS WILL NOT WORK AT THE LOWER LEVELS THOUGH!
If there are several limpers you can raise with virtually any 2cards.
WHAT? you ask?
Well, since the original limpers are aware of the gap concept, or so you hope, they have not raised. The only player you have to worry about is the original limper (you are hoping he wasn't hoping to limp/reraise)

You WILL get caught with your hand in the cookie jar so to speak from time to time, but it's definitely a +EV play to put into your arsenal.

Just remember, if you are playing below $1/2NL (even here it's player dependant) don't bother with it.
It just won't work. The players simply aren't good enough to fold.

This works VERY well in tournaments also.
Just make sure you know the players can fold.
Don't try it in the nightly $5 tourney, but as you work your way up to the higher buy-ins, "squeeze" it in to your bag of tricks
 
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Chopper
Old 05-27-2007, 01:24 PM #9 (permalink)  
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play AJs all you want, but LEARN when to dump it post flop. it is easily dominated by anything calling your raise, and some players still limp AQ when you open-limp w/ AJ.

learn who is who, and when to play it fast, and what situations are bad for your hand.

it IS a decent starting hand, but too many players starting out, myself included, tend to overplay it.

just fyi, i have this year only 30k hands played (havent played nearly as much as i used to), and carry a overall win rate of 8 between 25 NL and 10 NL...so, not bad.

but while AK has won me $75, AJ has won me $25. hell, pocket 7's have won me just over $50.

what does that tell you about the strength of AJ?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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biondino
Old 05-27-2007, 04:18 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Absolutely nothing, chopper, sample size is too small
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Chopper
Old 05-28-2007, 03:19 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Absolutely nothing, chopper, sample size is too small
hope thats more sarcasm.

if not, i got another 35K+ at 50 NL, and another 25K at 25 NL that says about the same thing, statistically, but i was trying to keep things current to this year.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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DarnGoodPoker
Old 05-28-2007, 04:38 AM #12 (permalink)  

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DarnGoodPoker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Absolutely nothing, chopper, sample size is too small
hope thats more sarcasm.

if not, i got another 35K+ at 50 NL, and another 25K at 25 NL that says about the same thing, statistically, but i was trying to keep things current to this year.
How much do you make with a-j UTG?
 
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Tripp Sixx
Old 05-28-2007, 06:13 AM     Post subject: Re: My First Question: AJs #13 (permalink)  

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Tripp Sixx
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarnGoodPoker
Simply put, consider it like this A-J = A-x
I actually gave the issue some thought since making my post, and I came to much the same conclusion - this is what is boils down to. (Though, not to nit-pick, it would be more accurate to say: A-Js = A-xs.)

Also excellent points from MagyarSHU.

Thanks guys.
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MagyarSHU
Old 05-28-2007, 07:16 PM #14 (permalink)  
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As I was reading over the posts and thought it over some more, the real answer is that it depends. There are some interesting plays and fancy moves you can make with AJs, but most people won't pick up on them at the lower level ring and SnGs because you come across alot of loose weak players who will chase with things as marginal as a GSSDs. At higher stakes, these plays would keep you on an even keel, so your competition won't catch on to your patterns so easily and leave them guessing. At the lower levels, it's better to play ABC poker and allow the other people to make mistakes. They'll make plenty.

As you mature as a poker player, you'll learn nuances from your experiences and become more acutely aware of your surroundings. You'll know when to play AJs cheap, aggressively, or when to fold it. Playing AJs from early position for beginners is what fire is to a child. It has many helpful uses, but until you learn how to control it, you'll just end up getting burned.

The low stakes are like fishing in the ocean. There are plenty of fish to catch, and you don't come into contact with competition too much(and your competiotion won't remember you as well). The higher the stakes go, the smaller that body of water gets and the more competition you come across. The highest stakes could be compared to hunting the loch ness moster(extremely wealthy fish who come in just to gamble and have a good time) while competing against the most respected, well funded scientists in the world.

That said, there's one situation I really do like playing AJs early/UTG:
you can get in cheap
there will be enough limpers behind you to get the odds to play it
players tend to over play their hands post flop

If you flop a four flush, this is an excellent place to check/raise or pull a squeeze play for all your chips. Depending on your stack, you may have some fold equity. If someone does call you, you are a coin flip at worst to win in most situations with two cards to go. Your nut flush will beat any pair, two pair, set, straight, or OESD/GSSD(lunatics: you'll want to play with the latter) which calls. If they call with top pair, your ace and jack may be outs as well. The only thing you'd be marginally worried about is a set or two pair could turn into a FH which beats your nut flush. Another worry would be a made flush calling you which leaves you with fewer outs, but you'd still be drawing to the better flush.

Thoughts?
 
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Tripp Sixx
Old 05-29-2007, 12:48 AM #15 (permalink)  

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Tripp Sixx
Well, in a sense, that's essentially where I was coming from initially: an UTG raise with this hand will generally get at least half the table to fold (especially if you've been playing tight), and any call or re-raise will give you enough information to put the villians on at least PP or two high cards, making your postflop play that much easier.

Also, since you raised UTG, your opponents are probably going to put you on something pretty nice, T-T or better, so unless they hit the flop hard, you're still in good shape with the cbet.

Last, and to your point about recognizing when to get away from it, it's a pretty easy fold if and when you miss the flop and get called or raised after your cbet. You can only truly get burned if you try to double shoot with nothing.

In general, though, I still pretty much agree that the bottom line is that this hand is only marginally better than A-Ts or A-9s, and the fact those hands aren't nearly as sexy preflop (especially UTG) tells you a little something about A-Js. The paint makes it look a little sexier than it really is. (It's very similar to JJ in that way.)
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Chopper
Old 05-29-2007, 01:22 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarnGoodPoker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Absolutely nothing, chopper, sample size is too small
hope thats more sarcasm.

if not, i got another 35K+ at 50 NL, and another 25K at 25 NL that says about the same thing, statistically, but i was trying to keep things current to this year.
How much do you make with a-j UTG?
i see the point about sample size in regards to UTG, specifically. i was mentioning it as a general holding when i gave stats.

as for UTG, i show (.42 BB/hand) with AJs, and 1.38 BB/hand with AJo. grand total of $5.60 profit with both AJo/AJs combined. so again, i see the point about sample size, in regards to specific position.

but the OP was about a "crash-course" in playing AJs. nothing about UTG was mentioned there. all he mentioned was that "one guy said it was an auto-fold UTG."
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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MagyarSHU
Old 05-29-2007, 05:02 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
but the OP was about a "crash-course" in playing AJs. nothing about UTG was mentioned there. all he mentioned was that "one guy said it was an auto-fold UTG."
Good point, I just thought I'd focus more on the early/UTG situations since those are the ones people can get caught up in and lose big pots. At the SnGs I play($5.50), these are the spots most players have leaks. Besides, it'd take too long to make up a ginormous post about all the situations to play AJs :P ...and most of it's pretty standard aggression PF imho.
 
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