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Lipkin
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10-13-2005, 05:04 AM
Post subject: My biggest problem
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 39
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I posted a little bit in the beginers forum, asking some questions about how to interpret my newly bought pokertracker results. From that I found that I lose a ton of money when I am betting at missed flops. I hear a lot about continuation betting being part of a good game, but I am doing it completely wrong. I have lost more money to this than I have profit at this point (about 32k hands at 6max.)
This includes being called down by a midpair, being called but hitting 2nd best hand on a later street, or being reraised and me folding.
How should I look at fixing this? If I were to take aok's advice for fixing a leak and make an "I will" statement and write it out 100 times, what would it say?
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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oh boy, definitely don't be a slave to PT if you're a NL player, and also don't blindly make continuation bets if you're opponents are likely to call with anything.
the amazing thing about poker is you don't HAVE to do anything, you control every move, call, and bet.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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another thing to keep in mind with PT, is it doesn't give you your BB/100 for what would happen if you DIDN"T play a hand. For example, you might raise ATo a lot of the time, and you're -$$ with it. But that doesn't mean that raising ATo is a bad thing. You would be -$$ with it if you didn't play it at all too. It doesn't show you the comparison.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
another thing to keep in mind with PT, is it doesn't give you your BB/100 for what would happen if you DIDN"T play a hand. For example, you might raise ATo a lot of the time, and you're -$$ with it. But that doesn't mean that raising ATo is a bad thing. You would be -$$ with it if you didn't play it at all too. It doesn't show you the comparison.
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theoretically, a good post flop player could show some healthy profit with marginal hands just like AA/KK would bring. how many times do you show down AA/KK when you may as well have played 27o? That isn't always the case, but i'm sure everyone has seen it.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
cant wait for the replies here....'wtf does rippy know he is a broke ass mo fo borrowing money from FTR's...etc etc'
sad but true....but nevertheless....being a slave to stats is a sure fire way to becoming 'dead money'
funny watching that guy reraise with 10/10 tonight against Sammy's A/10 to a A/A/10 flop and bet the ranch going out the first hand....lmao
I just hate the idea of a computer program pointing out my 'leaks' with certain hands when every single situation is different.
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That hand ruled. Then the guy went over to Tobey Maquire and started bitching like a pansy. What the hell is spiderman gonna do? Did you see the guy who raised like 20xBB preflop with AA? Sammy just smiled and called with 33 before hitting a set and busting him. Classic moment.
Rippy, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm not a big advocate of becoming a hold em math slave. Math was my best subject in school, but I still despise hold em math. Even Fnord the hold em math genius admitted that as you learn more about hold em, you become less and less dependant on the math. Each situation becomes it's own. Take the hold em route of instinct, and you'll learn the right way. Make no mistake about it. The best poker players in the world are improvisational by nature.
If computer programs could make you a winning player, then everyone who used one would be winning.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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CrunchyNuts
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 436
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Math must have killed Rippy's dog or something.
To blatently ignore a tool is foolish. To limit yourself to one tool is foolish. Math is a tool to a poker player.
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CrunchyNuts
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 436
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As for PT:
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take PokerTracker and shove it where it belongs.
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Yup, shove it right in there with your self-accounting and play-review. Having all of your hands indexed and available for review is a handy tool as well. In your case, the numbers seem to indicate you aren't being very successful in your continuation bets. You have every instance of continuation bets you have made available to you - look at the ones that worked and look at the ones that didn't. Figure out the difference and learn what doesn't work.
Which happens to be the same thing that would happen if you kept at it - eventually your instinct would be trained to avoid the situations where cont. betting isn't favorable. However, analysis will get you there faster and at less cost.
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Staple Gun
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Gamblers Anonymous
Posts: 812
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts
Math must have killed Rippy's dog or something.
To blatently ignore a tool is foolish. To limit yourself to one tool is foolish. Math is a tool to a poker player.
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Rippy is a tool.
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DaHorror
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 616
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Crunchy made a good suggestion - before you give up on continuation bets, figure out why they failed. Were you continuation betting into 5 other players in the hand? Were you continuation betting into someone who had a set?
Was it a calling station with middle pair that just never believes someone has an overpair?
Hopefully analyzing a good subset of key hands should provide you with some info to improve your game!
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Lipkin
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 39
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After spending two hours or so looking through hands where I lost money after continuation betting, I found that it was usually either one of two things.
1: I would bet more than I would have needed to fingure out where I was at.
2: I wasn't paying attention at the table and was playing at a player who was either calling everything, or reraising everything.
Since I've been reading this post I've played about 4 hours of poker and feel like I haven't fucked things up for myself with betting away my stack in these situations. I haven't been playing perfectly by any means, but this has been huge for allowing myself to hold onto the money I make on other hands.
thanks errybody
(ps, Ripp, I have been lurking here for over a year, and the first thing i remember reading that really gave my game a boost was your strat for sitngos. thanks)
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Making continuation bets out of position can be disastrous. You have no new information at all about your opponents and you're betting into the dark. In position you can throw your hand away to a bet if you'd like (saving money by making a continuation bet, getting raised or smooth called and then folding) or make a bet if it's checked to you. If you bet out at every flop then your more observant opponents will take notice and call you down with nothing. Check about a third of the time and bet 2/3 of the time and you'll get better results.
Also occasionally firing a second bullet after you're smooth called can take down a nice pot.
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renegaderob1
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 311
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts
As for PT:
Quote:
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take PokerTracker and shove it where it belongs.
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Yup, shove it right in there with your self-accounting and play-review. Having all of your hands indexed and available for review is a handy tool as well. In your case, the numbers seem to indicate you aren't being very successful in your continuation bets. You have every instance of continuation bets you have made available to you - look at the ones that worked and look at the ones that didn't. Figure out the difference and learn what doesn't work.
Which happens to be the same thing that would happen if you kept at it - eventually your instinct would be trained to avoid the situations where cont. betting isn't favorable. However, analysis will get you there faster and at less cost. |
Agreed.
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Roll Rebuilding (for the second time). Current; $1600 from $300 (previous, $2300 from $15)
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
funny watching that guy reraise with 10/10 tonight against Sammy's A/10 to a A/A/10 flop and bet the ranch going out the first hand....lmao
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Given how rare the (non-flush) nuts are in hold'em, you're losing A LOT of money in that spot, almost certainly going bust. That's the cold, harsh reality of poker. If you're suggesting you wouldn't go broke there, then that's just silly. I fail to see how this example adds much content to the discusison, other than if you're not ready to run bad, then you're playing too big. If you go to the WSOP main event unprepared to be on the losing end of a hand you have no control over, then you is the fish.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Staple Gun
Rippy is a tool.
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I wouldn't go that far. His style has merit because a lot of medicore nitty players won't stand up to him, fail to read him quickly among their 4+ tables (they incorrectly think he's a maniac) and then play him all wrong. Even when you play it right, it's fustrating because you're reduced to re-bluffing and inducing his "fuck that weak shit, I'm all-in" reflex. If you pick the wrong spot or get sucked out on it's going to be expensive. However, rolling over and waiting for a nut-like hand is a sure-fire road to failure.
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