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My Achilles Heel, it seems...

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Molinero

08-21-2004, 08:22 PM Post subject: My Achilles Heel, it seems...

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: In The General Vicinity of Dallas

Posts: 230

OK, here's the deal: I took the advice of most of the regulars on here a few weeks ago, and started playing a lot of SNGs...at first, I tanked. But then I started getting better and I realized that, for the money I put in to one sitting at a ring game, I could play 8 to 10 tourneys -- and come out even or ahead. So now I've got my online bankroll built up fairly well.

Here's the problem that I run into in live games and tourneys, and occaisonally online (and boy, is it a BIG problem): I am REALLY bad at putting people on hands. I mean, last nite in a live game, I got taken down because I had a guy on pocket JJ or TT with AA on the board, and I reraised him with my QQ. OUCH! he had a ragged A in the hole, and had called my preflop raise.

Later, after buying back in, I flopped the nut flush and slowplayed it, hoping I could get some action. The board paired on the river, and a dude bet into me. I thought, "This sucks...maybe he has a boat." But I went ahead and reraised like a sucker, and sure enough...he got his boat.

In both situations, I ignored my first instinct and put the player on something else, which I know you shouldn't do. Problem is, I don't trust my first instinct, because it's wrong more often than not.

I guess the specific situations I have the most trouble on are when people call preflop raises with a relatively weak hand, or figuring out when someone is sitting on two pair that might boat my flush or straight. Figuring out people who are sitting on a draw is fairly easy; I don't have much trouble with that. As far as the other two circumstances, am I relegated to simply playing pot odds and tells, or is there something else that can help me out?

This is the area of my game that desperately needs improvement, so if anyone can make some concrete suggestions, I would much appreciate it.

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Aceofone

08-21-2004, 09:59 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 497

Practice, Practice, Practice, and Practice.

The only way to get good at putting people on hands is with experience.

From where you are playing (skill wise) right now, don't try to put somebody on JJ or TT or AK, only try to think does he have me beat, or am I still ahead of him, from there it will come naturally.

Humphrind

08-21-2004, 10:15 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

There is another post buried around here somewhere. It is about putting people on hands. Someone made the point that it is best not to put anyone on a hand ever. Just consider how they are betting and if you are holding good cards with the community, or great cards with the community.

I am not very good at putting people on hands. I can take a good guess and sometimes I'm right. But it's not my strong point.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

michael1123

08-21-2004, 10:42 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

When you're not in a hand, watch how people play very carefully, and try to put the aggressor (and anyone else you can, but the aggressor is the easiest to read) on a hand. Hopefully it'll get shown down or he'll show, and you can see how far off you were. Keep doing that as often as possible, and you'll start to get a hang for how different types of players play different types of hands.

I've heard Doyle Brunson say that once he picks up on a players style, he remembers other players he's played with that have played similarly and relates that to the player, and uses that to read his opponents. If this player plays a hand in a somewhat strange way, he'd remember another similar player making a play like that when he had a certain type of hand, and use that against them.

Now, I don't have all that much live game experience, but I really relate to that, and do use that online. For example, a tight not so skilled player who barely ever raises, min raises preflop after a couple limpers. On the flop, he min raises again. Even though its an odd way to play any hand, I remember seeing some tight players play pocket aces like this, and put him on that. Another type of player may bet 3x BB preflop and shove all in immediately on all high pocket pairs over the flop, and you can pick up on that. A minraise preflop from these type of players may be more likely to be a steal attempt with a decent hand.

If you don't have that good of a read on them, at least pick up on the skill level. If I'm playing against a player who I think is fairly close to my style and skill level, the best way to read them is to think "What would I bet in that way?". Would I likely be bluffing, semi-bluffing, slowplaying, or playing it straight? Would I fold a hand of that strength to a raise?

If I'm playing against a fish, there's certain types of plays that fish make often. Same with maniacs, rocks, calling stations, etc.

So basically, try to figure out what type of players you're playing with and watch how they play certain types of hands. Then keep that in mind if you see a similar style of player play a hand in a similar fashion. Sometimes this isn't even concious thought. You just think "AA" and don't know why, but find out you're right. If you're off, then remember the play and consider that it could be this other hand next time.

Also, one more thing you may want to watch out for. It sounds like, from your examples, that you may be unconciously putting them on hands that you beat because you hope that's the case. Once you start getting pretty good at reading players, trust your reads. Unless you're getting amazing pot odds, if you read that you're dominated, get out, even if you have a big hand.

FyrFytr998

08-22-2004, 02:37 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Milford,Ct.

Posts: 1,412

I definitely see a difference between the types of hands that are played live versus online. For some reason people will play just about any hand online. I'm not sure if it's because they feel like the cards are predetermined or what, but hands are much looser online. So therefore, I don't place people on hands when I play online. I just make sure I always try to bet accordingly and have as good a kicker as possible.

On a side note. For practice, I play poker with the Hoyle Casino computer program. Those computer characters will play just about anything and I really liken it to a live online game. I know there are other programs out there, but I use it to practice just about all the casino games I play. My craps game is top notch now. As well as baccarat and blackjack. (It even shows how to count cards.) Check it out.

Big Lick

michael1123

08-22-2004, 03:43 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

Quote:

Some players, especially at lower limits, yeah. But even a player like that, a preflop call certainly isn't readable, but their post flop play usually is. Its not about reading their exact cards, as it is reading the strength of their hand post flop. Doing this is practically essential in situations where you need to know whether to lay down a TPTK hand or better.

Molinero

08-22-2004, 08:17 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: In The General Vicinity of Dallas

Posts: 230

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

Its not about reading their exact cards, as it is reading the strength of their hand post flop. Doing this is practically essential in situations where you need to know whether to lay down a TPTK hand or better.

Any suggestions as to how I should do this? I mean, obviously, if a really conservative player bets big into me, I can be reasonably certain he had a favorable flop. But I don't see many of those types -- especially not online. Besides, any reasonably good player can be expected to vary his play...how does one take things like this into account?

DrNoChance

08-22-2004, 01:36 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

I sometimes overthink situations when I'm trying to put somebody on a hand. I never put somebody on one specific hand; I try to put them on a range of hands with some being more likely than others simply by the odds of them being dealt, and some being more likely because of previous betting patterns from that player I've seen. Then I decide if I'm probably ahead or probably behind, look at the pot odds, and take it from there....unless I'm getting tired/bored, and then I just go with my instincts

Here's an example:

3 people see the flop in an unraised pot. I've got Q9o in the BB. Flop comes:

Q T 3 rainbow.

I check, next player checks, last guy fires out a near pot sized bet.

My read on this player:
Semi-loose, hasn't been caught bluffing/semi-bluffing, will bet 2nd pair if checked to him.

So his range of hands that are ahead of me post-flop could be:
AQ (8 different ways of being dealt), but I discount 50% from this since I think he would have raised AQ pre-flop for a score of 4.
KQ (8 different ways)
QJ (8 different ways)
33 (3 different ways)
QT (6 different ways)

There's other possibilities, but these are the most likely hands he could have that beat me since it's an unraised pot. Total score = 29.

Now, for the hands that he might bet that I'm ahead of:

AT (12 ways)
KT (12 ways)
JT (12 ways)
T9s (2-3 ways)

Total score = 39.

He could be bluffing or have limped in with a monster, but I figure those are unlikely enough that they cancel out. Largely based on the fact that I believe that my opponent will bet 2nd pair in this situation, I decide that I'm most likely ahead at this point and either call/raise.

Are you going to do all that math in your head in 10 seconds? No. You'd be suprised though how good you get at doing a rough estimate of what's most likely, to the point that it becomes like instinct.

The point of all this jibber-jabber is don't put your opponent on one specific hand. Just decide if what they have is probably better or probably worse than what you have. If you're probably behind, ask if pot odds justify a call.

Sorry if I made this wayyy more complex than it needed to be

michael1123

08-22-2004, 09:54 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molinero

Like I said, it comes with experience. Once you get a feel for their game, you get a feel for what they likely have. Also one thing I forgot to mention above that factors in is how long they take to play. You can get a feel for when they're stalling purposely or weren't there or whatever (usually preflop in this case), and when they're geniunely faced with a decision. Most notably, if they always act in the first couple seconds, but this time take 10 seconds, coupled with how they're betting, you can get a feel for if they're slowplaying you and trying to trap you by taking a while, if they have a good draw and were figuring out pot odds, if they have good hand but are worried they're beat, etc.

But again, once you get a lot of experience, as long as you're paying attention to what they have and how they play it, this'll come pretty naturally I think.

Here's an interesting article on this that I read a week ago - http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...php?a_id=14185

Most of it is just on the delay thing, but it mentions the "patterns" and "situations" too.

Xianti

08-22-2004, 10:05 PM

#10 (permalink)

Administrator
Administrator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: facebook.com/xianti

Posts: 5,289

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

Here's an interesting article on this that I read a week ago - http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...php?a_id=14185

Most of it is just on the delay thing, but it mentions the "patterns" and "situations" too.

Nice article. I'm going to include this in our Playing the Player forum.

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