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My 3363rd post. My thoughts about micro stakes poker, IMO

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swiggidy

02-07-2009, 05:52 AM Post subject: My 3363rd post. My thoughts about micro stakes poker, IMO

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

I doubt any of this is new. But this is what I think I think about microstakes poker. I'll try to keep this brief and succinct. This probably relates to 6max more than FR

Winning micro stakes poker is boring
Just accept this. Forget fancy bluffs. Forget soul reading (at least until you learn to hand read). A very boring strategy is a winning strategy. E.g. betting mostly for value, and folding with little equity (instead of floating, etc)

If you are constantly faced with tough decisions YOU are doing something wrong
When you act, with a plan and proper bet sizing, things will take care of themselves. If you're stuck with a tough decision, take a look at previous moves and likely changing something will remove the difficulty in your decision.

Your opponents are not tricky/fancy/smart enough to create real problems.

I don't like the idea of "stealing"
There are enough hands I can raise from CO/BTN that have some equity potential post. So I try to avoid thinking about "stealing" and simply fold hands that are basically worthless post-flop if I am called (Q5o, T4s, etc). I like to think I'm playing hands for value with position.

If you insist on stealing; the really hard part is to give up if you get called. That's right, c/f, or check down any board you don't 2pair+. You'll save headache, monies and not have difficult decisions. If you decide that raising from the button, and folding "any" flop is not mathematically profitable, then don't steal.

Table select
Yes, even at 2NL you could benefit from this.

A poker plan starts with the opponents, which affects your pre-flop selection, which affects post-flop. It's circular, feel the flow.

My game is tailored to beating people that put too much money into the pot without nut hands. Thus, I sit at tables with people who play too many hands and put too much money in the pot. If a couple people leave and now the table is tight I could adjust my game and try to steal lots of small pots. Or I could just leave and find another, so I do.

If someone on your left is making life difficult, leave. Don't waste time trying to out think the poor micro-stakes players. There will be plenty of time for learning to think after you're rolled for higher stakes.

If you decide to adjust, that means tweaking every aspect of your game. You're still learning, so changing as little as possible is probably best. (This is why most people play FR.)

Bluffing
We just picked a table where people call too much and now you want to push them off hands?

Disclaimer
BigSuspenders: lulz
BigSuspenders: guy goes on one heater and thinks he can write a post
BigSuspenders: seen it before
BigSuspenders:

Cliff Notes:
I don't like words.
Dang that was long, sorry.

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Illfavor

02-07-2009, 06:14 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Denton, TX

Posts: 1,152

Nothing wrong with hammering some micro stakes fundamentals. Nice post.

Ich grolle nicht...

bjsaust

02-07-2009, 07:47 AM Post subject: Re: My 3363rd post. My thoughts about micro stakes poker, I

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

If someone on your left is making life difficult, leave. Don't waste time trying to out think the poor micro-stakes players. There will be plenty of time for learning to think after you're rolled for higher stakes.

Probably one of the harder things, at least in my experience. Gotta stick that ego away. We're here to win money, not to prove we can pwn that annoying guy who has the advantage of position on us.

Just playing to improve.

hangchiong

02-07-2009, 11:50 AM Post subject: Re: My 3363rd post. My thoughts about micro stakes poker, I

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 359

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

I don't like the idea of "stealing"
There are enough hands I can raise from CO/BTN that have some equity potential post. So I try to avoid thinking about "stealing" and simply fold hands that are basically worthless post-flop if I am called (Q5o, T4s, etc). I like to think I'm playing hands for value with position.

If you insist on stealing; the really hard part is to give up if you get called. That's right, c/f, or check down any board you don't 2pair+. You'll save headache, monies and not have difficult decisions. If you decide that raising from the button, and folding "any" flop is not mathematically profitable, then don't steal.

My big leak now,stealing hands with junk on the BTN or CO,and double barreling it.I refuse to give it up sometimes.

Big Winrate Increases in Microstakes :
When you
1.Value bet
2.Bluff less

Illfavor

02-07-2009, 02:48 PM Post subject: Re: My 3363rd post. My thoughts about micro stakes poker, I

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Denton, TX

Posts: 1,152

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Probably one of the harder things, at least in my experience. Gotta stick that ego away. We're here to win money, not to prove we can pwn that annoying guy who has the advantage of position on us.

I have a question about this. How long do we stay before we're confident he's annoying? Like 8-10 orbits? Or more/less?

Ich grolle nicht...

kb coolman

02-07-2009, 03:00 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 596

5 spades for this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

If you are constantly faced with tough decisions YOU are doing something wrong
When you act, with a plan and proper bet sizing, things will take care of themselves. If you're stuck with a tough decision, take a look at previous moves and likely changing something will remove the difficulty in your decision.

jyms

02-07-2009, 03:22 PM

#7 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

When he Calls your steals and cbets multiple times with garbage hands. Stations are fun but damn they can drive you to stop paying attention to everything else when on your left.

YouTube - Classified - "Oh... Canada" [Official Video]

swiggidy

02-07-2009, 03:26 PM Post subject: Re: My 3363rd post. My thoughts about micro stakes poker, I

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Thanks guys. Was reflecting a bit and realized this is mostly a list of some "ahh-ha" moments. If you were wondering what they look like.

To expand on the bluffing. Cbetting a HU flop is not bluffing IMO. Cbetting a multi-way pot with little equity is spew. The cbet has to be bigger, and it's more likely someone sticks around since it's multi-way. Just like hang said, this was a huge leak for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

I have a question about this. How long do we stay before we're confident he's annoying? Like 8-10 orbits? Or more/less?

This should be apparent in <5 orbits. When the thought "fuck you're annoying" enters your head, that's the first sign. If villains play is not obviously exploitable to you, then leave.

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kb coolman

02-07-2009, 03:43 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2008

Posts: 596

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

When the thought "fuck you're annoying" enters your head, that's the first sign.

I lol'd at this.

swiggidy

02-07-2009, 03:48 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

LOL, micro stakes poker is easy
It always pissed me off when people said this.

You can beat Micro stakes with a technically solid game. Getting your game to that point isn't necessarily fast or simple, but after it's there you can win with minimal thinking.

At least, that's what I'm assuming better players are thinking when they say this.

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BreakDancinCow

02-07-2009, 07:27 PM

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2009

Posts: 23

I have a problem with stealing, too. That's a great point, about how if you're folding any flop, it's rarely mathematically profitable to steal unless you've got nits to your left.

On a related note, though, there are a lot of players who'll run 70/4 pre-flop, but a 95% fold to cbet because they're only playing their cards and the board, and don't understand bet sizing. These type players make stealing extremely profitable, because you'll either pick up their blinds, or take the pot with a cbet, and you know exactly where you are if they call or raise.

02-07-2009, 07:28 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

I agree 99%

the 1% is about stealing
if you don't hold AKo, a suited broadway or TT+ you'd prefer everyone folded to win you the blinds
Search your database, you know it to be true

swiggidy

02-07-2009, 08:16 PM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreakDancinCow

I have a problem with stealing, too. That's a great point, about how if you're folding any flop, it's rarely mathematically profitable to steal unless you've got nits to your left.

That wasn't the point. If then blinds are tight you CAN raise ATC and show a profit. Spoon did a good post about stealing that shows that.

I'm saying if you're going to mess around too much postflop you will quickly give up this eV edge you gain from stealing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

if you don't hold AKo, a suited broadway or TT+ you'd prefer everyone folded to win you the blinds
Search your database, you know it to be true

Interesting point. You would have to do better than 150bb/100 to do better than just winning the blinds.

I may hope they fold, but I am still confident in playing the hand with position post.

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HarleyGuy13

02-07-2009, 08:42 PM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Oregon

Posts: 1,226

Swigg great post as U and I have discussed. I think I'm going to read this before each of my next ten sessions!

"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it

chink44

02-09-2009, 10:18 PM

#15 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Pennsylvania

Posts: 26

Good post. I enjoy the stealing section. I cant tell you how many times I have been in the CO or BTN and tried to steal with a suited connector or weak ace, then try 2 or 3 barreling only to be called down by a second pair. For me this doesnt work at the micro stakes and I slowly gotten away from it. I think its ok to try and c-bet, but be done after that. This is just a little piece of advice to help anyone, please stay away because you will be called down.

and table selection is very important. Avoid short stacks and just play ABC. I look for extremely loose tables with a high Avg pot $ and lots of hands per hour. Table selection has really helped me and my roll in the long run, so practice it well

I'll Make Ya Famous

dev

02-09-2009, 10:53 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: swonging and swonging

Posts: 1,550

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Search your database, you know it to be true

Gold. This is so reusable.

oh yeah, and good post Swiggidy.

Check out my self-deprecation here!

tuuk2

02-09-2009, 11:56 PM

#17 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: East Hartford

Posts: 296

Great post! I especially like the stealing section. Sometimes it seems that you just want to make these donks fold to your steal attempt. I've certainly been guilty of trying to make my opponent fit my game as opposed to me make the necessary changes. If the donks keep calling and I keep trying to steal anyway, who's the donk?

Sir Pawnalot

02-10-2009, 01:31 AM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Norway

Posts: 668

Love what you said about stealing. No need for stealing equity when fold equity is low.

A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.

Otter_Brothface

02-10-2009, 02:33 AM

#19 (permalink)

Two Pair

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 40

I play 100NL so the players aremuch better, but sometimes people still try to bet lots all the time in those steaks aswell. I hate when they try to steal the pot by betting.

kfaess

02-10-2009, 02:45 AM

#20 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2008

Posts: 556

kfaess is an unknown quantity at this point

Great summary of the micros, I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Anyone who follows these wise words is sure to make money in these stakes.

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