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Multi-way preflop all-in with KK

  
 
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Strung
Old 07-14-2005, 04:00 AM     Post subject: Multi-way preflop all-in with KK #1 (permalink)  
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Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?
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k8s
Old 07-14-2005, 05:35 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I call unless it is 3+ people all in. Then I'd probably fold. It also depends how deep the stacks are and if you're facing a tight table though.
 
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Old 07-14-2005, 05:38 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Kings don't get too much weaker even with a lot of callers. If you go all in you're still going to be +EV
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Greedo017
Old 07-14-2005, 05:40 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 yes call everytime, regardless of # of callers.
i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
 
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k8s
Old 07-14-2005, 05:41 AM #5 (permalink)  
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At 3-4 callers on a normal table, isn't someone bound to have aces? Or should I just push anyway and hope..?
 
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Old 07-14-2005, 05:53 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by k8s
At 3-4 callers on a normal table, isn't someone bound to have aces? Or should I just push anyway and hope..?
one in twenty two times on a full table someone's going to have aces

so if you get called by anything else if you push, you're going to be +EV
although in more multi-way pots straights and flushes and the "overace" and small pairs drawing to a set start to make your EV suck if everyone calls without thinking
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Strung
Old 07-14-2005, 05:55 AM #7 (permalink)  
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This ended up being a very odd hand. I called.

Flop: Q 4 6
Turn: J
River: 10

Showdown: Me: KK
First All in guy: AA
Butoon: AK

Lol AK hit runner runner for straight. AK was about a 6% winner in this hand. Damn kings have been killing me latley, 0/5.

Anyways, any specific reasoning as to why KK is still a good call here? I guess playing at $25 NL like I do the other two players could have any random hand as I've seen some really odd all-ins. I think KK would still have about a ~65% equity under random hand assumption. Anyone can find some good info on this?
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evman150
Old 07-14-2005, 05:58 AM #8 (permalink)  
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I had a hand today where I had KK with a very short stack of $2.50 at a NL25 table. I had just lost a big pot the hand before and didn't have time to rebuy. Anyways, after somebody in EP raised it and five people called, I raised all in for 1.50 more and everybody called! The flop was nothing and some guy bet big with a flush draw and folded everybody which was good for me and I ended up taking the pot of ~$16.

I believe that is called "sexing up" in the poker vernacular.

As for the opener in this thread, never fold KK in a position like that. IMO.
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Dassin
Old 07-14-2005, 06:24 AM #9 (permalink)  

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Wow, I hate going all in with AK. That guy got friggin lucky, as that straight was about his only hope.
 
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 07-21-2005, 06:55 AM     Post subject: I agree #10 (permalink)  
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Wow, I hate going all in with AK.
I second that.ESP in a cash game.Tourney oh well.
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Greedo017
Old 07-21-2005, 01:43 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 the reasaon you always call, is because in 100nl the other day, someone raised to 4x, i reraised to 20x, they pushed, with AK at my KK. i'd think you could find a couple people at 25NL who'd push without aces: honestly you have no idea what crap they have. if someone does have aa, suckout, but if nobody does you're missing a triple up.
i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-21-2005, 02:40 PM     Post subject: Re: Multi-way preflop all-in with KK #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strung
Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?
If the entire table goes AI, I still call.

-'rilla
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Silly String
Old 07-21-2005, 03:46 PM #13 (permalink)  
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This is where bankroll management comes into play.
You need to have the bankroll to withstand making All-in calls with positive EV even if you are behind in the hand. If you don't, you don't understand the math or you are playing scared at limits too high for your bankroll.

You may be behind in the hand to AA, but considering the amount in the pot versus the amount it takes to call, you are very +EV.
Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
 
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journey075
Old 07-21-2005, 03:54 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
This is where bankroll management comes into play.
You need to have the bankroll to withstand making All-in calls with positive EV even if you are behind in the hand. If you don't, you don't understand the math or you are playing scared at limits too high for your bankroll.

You may be behind in the hand to AA, but considering the amount in the pot versus the amount it takes to call, you are very +EV.

youre talking about pot odds and he doesnt have them. hes either ahead or drawing slim - hes gotta make the call on whether or not kings are good.
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EricE
Old 07-21-2005, 04:13 PM     Post subject: Re: Multi-way preflop all-in with KK #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strung
Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?
If the entire table goes AI, I still call.

-'rilla
With so many callers isn't it terribly likely that someone will hit and beat you? I'll believe you that its +EV but it *seems* like a thin odds situation.
Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
 
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Silly String
Old 07-21-2005, 04:16 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Sorry for not clarifying, but I was speaking to 'rilla's comment about the whole table All-in, not OP.

OP would need to determine if KK is good right now, b/c only 3 people All-in. I would need amounts in their stacks, but I'm guessing he is laid 2:1 or slightly worse to call. He is, IMO, at worst 17% to win the hand. He needs to determine if his read on the 2 All-ins can make up for 15%EV. I guess very likely a fold if you have any inkling one is AA.


And EricE I just realized your the guy I refer to in my signature.
Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
 
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EricE
Old 07-21-2005, 04:30 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
And EricE I just realized your the guy I refer to in my signature.
LOL, exactly.
Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
 
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CrunchyNuts
Old 07-21-2005, 06:39 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Few people are insane enough to go AI with something like middle connectors or random crap...so you gotta figure, if there's a lot of folks going AI, they've all got high cards, and if everyone has high cards, it's far less likely they'll hit anything to beat you. For instance, KK vs AK vs AQ vs QJ gives you around 60% to win, hugely EV.

In other words, if I'm holding KK, the more people AI the better - the more likely it is that they've all got a single ace (and are also playing eachothers straight outs)
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ponyboy
Old 07-21-2005, 07:26 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Just out of interest, what about the guy who had AK? Personally I think AK is a drawing hand without a lot of strength especially against people you know have pocket pairs. I have folded AK preflop in situations like the one described above in the past and have never had a potential straight come up. Especially if you have AK, one guy has AA and the other has KK four of your outs are gone right away. Would you fold AK?
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CrunchyNuts
Old 07-21-2005, 08:42 PM #20 (permalink)  
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http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1097247
Code:
pokenum  -h kh kc  - ah ks  - as qd  - qc jc 
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win    lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
Kc Kh  677699  62.40  402816  37.09   5493  0.51  0.626
Ks Ah  159149  14.65  909335  83.73  17524  1.61  0.154
As Qd   70438   6.49  991591  91.31  23979  2.21  0.075
Qc Jc  153231  14.11  920829  84.79  11948  1.10  0.146
Yes, I would folk AK to many AIs. It'd only take one person to have any pocket pair to really mess things up for you...and I've noticed at smaller limits, folks tend to really love pocket pairs pre-flop.
Up my bankroll - buy Saints Row.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-21-2005, 08:54 PM     Post subject: Re: Multi-way preflop all-in with KK #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strung
Do you play this? Let me setup the scenario. UTG raises $1, I reraise to $2, next player goes all-in. Button also calls All-in. Do you call?
If the entire table goes AI, I still call.

-'rilla
With so many callers isn't it terribly likely that someone will hit and beat you? I'll believe you that its +EV but it *seems* like a thin odds situation.
At a 9 person table, you'd be given 8:1 odds on your AI. That's good enough to just hit a fucking set and win the damn thing.

I was taking the example to the extreme. Never fold KK preflop. Never decline to go AI with KK preflop. Not until you've put 100,000 hands under your belt, will you be able to even return to this subject and think about maybe folding KK preflop someday.

If I was in the WSOP and 5600 players went AI, I'd still call with KK.

-'rilla
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__Dan__
Old 07-23-2005, 12:16 AM #22 (permalink)  

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POKERSTARS GAME #2162320123: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/07/22 - 17:41:11 (ET)
Table 'Byblis' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: DF___ ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 2: MIAMI02 ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Faithless1 ($20.15 in chips)
Seat 5: wedgie ($17.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Spaceman1022 ($14.50 in chips)
MIAMI02: posts small blind $0.10
Faithless1: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DF___ [Kh Kd]
wedgie: folds
Spaceman1022: raises $0.75 to $1
DF___: calls $1
MIAMI02: raises $7.50 to $8.50 and is all-in
Faithless1: folds
Spaceman1022: calls $7.50
DF___: raises $7.50 to $16
Spaceman1022: calls $6 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [5c Jd Jc]
*** TURN *** [5c Jd Jc] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [5c Jd Jc 5h] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Spaceman1022: shows [7d 7c] (two pair, Jacks and Sevens)
DF___: shows [Kh Kd] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
DF___ collected $11.40 from side pot
MIAMI02: mucks hand
MIAMI02 leaves the table
DF___ collected $24.50 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $37.75 Main pot $24.50. Side pot $11.40. | Rake $1.85
Board [5c Jd Jc 5h Ad]
Seat 1: DF___ (button) showed [Kh Kd] and won ($35.90) with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 2: MIAMI02 (small blind) mucked [6s Th]
Seat 4: Faithless1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: wedgie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Spaceman1022 showed [7d 7c] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Sevens



and yes, I know the preflop call was weak, but whatever
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straight167
Old 07-23-2005, 08:21 AM #23 (permalink)  

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the only time i got my KKs cracked by a simple ACe on the board was when I was playing on the final table....3 players left. This guy went all in. I immediately called. The chip leader called.

I had KKs

the first guy AK os

chip leader AQ os

andthe FIRSt card from the flop was ......an ACE
make the RIGHT decision at the RIGHT time.



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I started with $100 on July 20, 2005



CURRENT PROJECT: "Im gonna get all of my $ I lost at the casino back"
 
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BIGandRICH
Old 07-23-2005, 09:13 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts
Yes, I would folk AK to many AIs. It'd only take one person to have any pocket pair to really mess things up for you...and I've noticed at smaller limits, folks tend to really love pocket pairs pre-flop.
yeh.. at micro limits every second player seems to think a low pp is worth going/calling AI preflop.. AK is a coinflip at best, but if someone has KK or AA then your dead.. I'm folding AK to any AI except maybe that of a maniac who has pushed the last 8 hands
villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
 
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journey075
Old 07-23-2005, 09:27 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGandRICH
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrunchyNuts
Yes, I would folk AK to many AIs. It'd only take one person to have any pocket pair to really mess things up for you...and I've noticed at smaller limits, folks tend to really love pocket pairs pre-flop.
yeh.. at micro limits every second player seems to think a low pp is worth going/calling AI preflop.. AK is a coinflip at best, but if someone has KK or AA then your dead.. I'm folding AK to any AI except maybe that of a maniac who has pushed the last 8 hands

they also overvalue AQ/AJ so theres a good chance youre way ahead. ive become a lot more aggressive w/ AK preflop and it works well.
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BIGandRICH
Old 07-23-2005, 10:13 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journey075
they also overvalue AQ/AJ so theres a good chance youre way ahead. ive become a lot more aggressive w/ AK preflop and it works well.
Aanything gets pretty badly overvalued, but its often calling AI, and with AQ/AJ they will raise and call a reraise or push, where as they are willing to push hard with any pair. I like the being more agressive with it preflop, i do this aswell now. Usually I get called by hands i'm dominating, AQ, AJ, KQ, or get raised by pairs.
villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
 
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