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Staple Gun
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05-08-2005, 12:20 AM
Post subject: Moving up to stop playing so stupid
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Gamblers Anonymous
Posts: 812
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Lately I have been playing what I consider to loose for my style, calling with any pocket pair when its 10% or less of our stacks, calling big raises with AK after a 4-4-2 flop only to see 8-8 took me down. Things that a couple months ago on a smaller bankroll I wouldnt do.
So I decided to test something, I moved from my regular $50 NL to a $100 NL for the first time. I set $75 down and played pretty smart, making a couple folds over the 100 hands or so that I probably wouldnt have made at lower stakes. With a few good hands I managed to make about $50 and cash out. Since then I have been playing better and not making stupid calls.
Since my bankroll at the time was a mere $550 was it worth the risk? throwing 15% of my BR on a table to try and jolt me out of my downswing?
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ekillian
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 235
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It depends on how much your bankroll means to you. Can you recover if you lose? Can you deposit? My history doing this like this has been bad. But I think it's ok to try if you can accept losing the stack that you take to the table.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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No, you were already playing kind of on the edge with 11 buyins at 50nl, the last thing you want to do is stretch yourself thinner. Also, since you are on a downswing you are probably tilting (even if yuo don't notice it, cause tilt can be very subtle), so moving up while on tilt is even worse.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i play 100 NL somewhat regularly with a 500-600 BR. I don't think its a problem at all. If i lose 100, not the biggest deal in the world. I'm not surviving off the money, its just for fun, and I think i will go up. No catastrophe's yet, and I was up a few hundred before hitting my current funk, which combined with not being able to play much lately has kept me at about break even. If i lose 1-200, i will drop to 50 NL. why is 11 buy-ins pushing it for 50 NL? Are you really worried about dropping 11 buy-ins?
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studboyjoe
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 130
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I think 500 is an acceptable number for your foray into 100NL if you don't think about your bankroll being too small when you play. If you worry about your bankroll when you're playing, it will affect your game and make you timid. You'll know soon enough whether you are comfortable at that limit or not.
Having said that, sure, it would be great to have a bigger bankroll.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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I lost $520 in 4 hours playing 100NL a few days ago. Whoever says that $500 sufficient to play 100NL is totally clueless.
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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And I lost over $300 a couple days ago playing 100NL myself. Losing your entire bankroll in a day is horrible, but even dropping from your high mark of $500 to $200 is catastrophic. Cant just worry about losing x number of buyins when you play. Have to think about how losing half, a third, or even a quarter of your bankroll will affect your progress.
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He who drinks beer sleeps well.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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way to practice good bankroll management guys. . .
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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For some people BR management is more a state of mind. I personally can deposit more and so I dont worry about it as much. I can run .25-.50 or .50-1.00 if I feel like it because I know that if I lose it I'll just deposit more. I feel secure playing these stakes even if I only have 2-3 buyins because I am willing to back my roll. If anyone else is willing to do this than I think that telling them that BR management is a set formula is ludicris. IMHO. Do what ya need to do to feel comfortable playing your game.
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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I think you're misintepreting BR - BR = the amount of money I can spend on poker, doesn't matter whether it is online, in your checking account or sitting at the table. If you're re-buying after losing your 500 'BR', your BR had more than 500 in it.
EDIT - to answer the original post, I think this is a strategy for disaster. If you can play better at .5/1, play better at .25/.5.
Having said that IF, as discussed above, your real BR is more like say 3K, it makes sense that you are playing loose at .25/.5 because the money doesn't bother you when you lose, and you should move up a level.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
i play 100 NL somewhat regularly with a 500-600 BR. I don't think its a problem at all. If i lose 100, not the biggest deal in the world. I'm not surviving off the money, its just for fun, and I think i will go up. No catastrophe's yet, and I was up a few hundred before hitting my current funk, which combined with not being able to play much lately has kept me at about break even. If i lose 1-200, i will drop to 50 NL. why is 11 buy-ins pushing it for 50 NL? Are you really worried about dropping 11 buy-ins?
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Yep, i've dropped 10 buyins in about a week and a half of horrible beats and second best hands.
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stewartkev
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 99
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I thought that this was a horrible idea til I tried it. Instead of $20NL I gave a try to $50NL with the profits from earlier today. I found the following:
1. It tightened up my hand selection, which I need to work on. I also played position better than usual.
2. It stopped my over-tendancy to slowplay.
3. Conversely, I didn't get the max out of my opponents on a couple of occasions as I overplayed my hands to prevent being outdrawn.
Overall, a good 1-off exercise to improve my game. I now need to move down to my bankrolled level to implement the leaks which I discovered through this. I think if you don't mind dropping the whole buy-in then once in a while this could help your game...with the emphasis on being willing to LOSE THE BUY-IN!
A nice $25 profit in the last hour from it helped my experience too 
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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There's nothing wrong with taking a shot in a bigger (too big for your BR) game occasionally. I wouldn't make a habit of it though.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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SmackinYaUp
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B N L
Posts: 1,725
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by stewartkev
I thought that this was a horrible idea til I tried it. Instead of $20NL I gave a try to $50NL with the profits from earlier today. I found the following:
1. It tightened up my hand selection, which I need to work on. I also played position better than usual.
2. It stopped my over-tendancy to slowplay.
3. Conversely, I didn't get the max out of my opponents on a couple of occasions as I overplayed my hands to prevent being outdrawn.
Overall, a good 1-off exercise to improve my game. I now need to move down to my bankrolled level to implement the leaks which I discovered through this. I think if you don't mind dropping the whole buy-in then once in a while this could help your game...with the emphasis on being willing to LOSE THE BUY-IN!
A nice $25 profit in the last hour from it helped my experience too |
Its good that you did well and learned, but to play good poker requires discipline regardless of the stakes. I don't know about you, but people like me and many other poker players have certain tendencies when losing. Not everyone who reads this post and moves up to higher stakes will be fortunate enough to make money even with perfect play. Losing money at higher stakes means losing a lot more money than you are used to which can lead to trying to keep playing those stakes to make up for the money which can lead to disaster. Bankroll management is such a basic and necessary concept that there is absolutely no reason to ignore it. Imagine having the skill to beat 10k NL games but never having learned proper bankroll management. Many of the best poker players in the world have destroyed themselves in this way.
Now that I have said what is correct, I gotta say that I have absolutely no room to preach because I am guilty as hell!
Be careful!
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Staple Gun
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Gamblers Anonymous
Posts: 812
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I think stewartkv summed it up pretty well. When you move up it makes you more aware of the game and what you are doing well or not so well.
Due to me cutting my own BR in half from a withdrawl, I recently moved down to $25 no limit where I am destroying the game. I think I might have played to long at the $50 nl where it got to be monotonous and I made all the standard raises and calls without really thinking about the game.
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stewartkev
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 99
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I have to say that a lot of this post is probably relating to a person's game going stale. As they say...variety is the spice of life! Moving up may not be the only option...perhaps moving down, trying limit, switching to SnGs, etc achieve the same end. When you play a particular game for a while, as you say, things become automatic. Switching up or down your play is important and trying new games probably helps this.
I found that I reached a ceiling when I played solely SnGs. I'd built up my minimal bankroll to the stage where I was beating $30 games regularly. Then I got bored. I lost the ability to take my game to another level, so I decided to learn how to play in ring games. I set myself a target...take $10 from Royal Vegas and build it up. I think having a good short-term goal gives you impetus to stop your game going stale, and make you a better all-round player.
Looking back on my previous post, I think I've successfully tightened up my game at the $20 level now. I'm playing a more controlled game and betting my edges more aggressively. I even managed not to tilt last night when my KK lost a $130 pot to 46s...which obviously made a flush! 
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storm75m
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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I've experienced the same thing, moving up in limits for a session even though I'm not properly bankrolled, with good results. I like what stewart said, about your game going stale. When you move up, you're more attentative to every detail, mostly cause you're playing scared (which is also a recipe for disaster). I don't think it's a bad thing to help you get your game back on track, but DO NOT make a habit of it. Human nature, if something is working, then stick with it, but I would say the opposite is true in this case. If you're doing well, you tend to get too comfortable and not concentrate as well. If your problem is playing too loose, I also find that multi-tabling 3 or more tables can work wonders as well.
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp
Bankroll management is such a basic and necessary concept that there is absolutely no reason to ignore it. Imagine having the skill to beat 10k NL games but never having learned proper bankroll management. Many of the best poker players in the world have destroyed themselves in this way.
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alot of those "pros" you see on tv, are great players but dont know how to manage a bankroll and live life broke the majority of the time.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
There's nothing wrong with taking a shot in a bigger (too big for your BR) game occasionally. I wouldn't make a habit of it though.
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Yup, I still do this. Trying to get experience at high stakes without making the jump.
-'rilla
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Precisely.
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