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Tim Vecchioni
Old 02-02-2005, 04:35 AM     Post subject: Most Outs Possible... #1 (permalink)  
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Hey guys... just a interesting topic... I was thinking and I started to wonder what is the most amount of outs you can possibly have... I've been told 21.. however would like to know the real truth. Along with the answer an example would be nice... so therefor when someone says "man I had like 25 outs" I can gladly step up and say there is only x possible... This is after a flop ofcourse... and if so to get the most outs... a turn card... figured this could stir up something interesting and is something good to know and look for..

thanks

Vesh
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Tim Vecchioni
Old 02-02-2005, 04:50 AM #2 (permalink)  
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ok heres an example... if someone can find more outs... shut me up by showing another example.. here it goes.

Hole Cards [Qc Jc]
vs.
Opponent [10h8h]

Flop [10c 3h 2c]

your both all in and cards are turned

as of this point you have 3 q's + 3 j's + 9 clubs = 15 outs

Turn [Ks]

Now 3 q's + 3 j's + 3 a's + 3 9's + 9 clubs = 21 outs

only 3 aces and 3 9's due to the overlaping of the flush possibility...

Well there is my 21 outter... as many outs as i could find in one hand... if you can find more... I would be glad to see it.

Vesh
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Sed
Old 02-02-2005, 04:53 AM #3 (permalink)  
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There are situations where you can pick up more outs on the turn...

Opp 8d9d
You 9sJs

Flop
8sTsTd

Turn Ac

On the flop I count 18 (9spades, 6 non-spade strt cards, 3 Js ) but after the turn you pick up 3 more since an A would counterfeit your opps low pair...

21 probably isn't the most you can have but it is all I can think of...

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Sed
Old 02-02-2005, 04:57 AM #4 (permalink)  
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You beat me to a 21outer...

What about omaha

brain hurts...

- sed
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Sed
Old 02-02-2005, 05:00 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Opp 8d9d
You JsQs

Flop
9sTsTd

Turn Ac

On the flop I count 21 (9spades, 6 non-spade strt cards, 3 Js, 3Qs ) but after the turn you pick up 3 more since an A would counterfeit your opps low pair...

haha 24

- sed
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Tim Vecchioni
Old 02-02-2005, 05:05 AM #6 (permalink)  
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only pick up 2 more... cause one of the aces is a spade but your right... would be 23...
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cartilago77
Old 02-02-2005, 08:36 AM #7 (permalink)  
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How many outs do you count if this is the hand?

You hold:

Opponet has:


Flop:
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HeavyP
Old 02-02-2005, 09:08 AM #8 (permalink)  
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21?

3K's
3Q's
3nine's
3Ace's

9diamonds.
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dalecooper
Old 02-02-2005, 12:35 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superdave
How many outs do you count if this is the hand?

You hold:

Opponet has:


Flop:
More outs:

You hold:

Opponent:


Flop:

outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.

If the turn is none of the above (and not a 2), you pick up another 3 outs, making 27 for the river
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Tim Vecchioni
Old 02-02-2005, 01:48 PM #10 (permalink)  
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nice example guys... goodjob... 27 outs... is looking like the most possible... i dont see how you can get more then that...
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koolmoe
Old 02-02-2005, 02:31 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.
You missed an ace.
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dalecooper
Old 02-02-2005, 02:41 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.
You missed an ace.
One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.
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koolmoe
Old 02-02-2005, 02:53 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.
You missed an ace.
One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.
Good point.
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Spook
Old 02-02-2005, 04:01 PM #14 (permalink)  
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And just to be silly, runner-runner 10's would also be a win for you.. as well as 9-8 so maybe call it another 1/4 of an out.
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Zangief
Old 02-02-2005, 08:06 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Just to break the idea, because I'm an ass like that:

You: :Ac: :As:
Opponent:

Flop: :Ad: :Ah: :Kh:

The remaining 43 cards in the deck are all outs, because your opponent is drawing dead.

I couldn't beat 26, so I went with this. Feel free to flog me, while I try to think of a real answer ....
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Zangief
Old 02-02-2005, 08:11 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.
You missed an ace.
One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.
The gives your opponent a boat, so can't be counted, either.
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dalecooper
Old 02-02-2005, 08:36 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangief
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
outs: 3 aces + 3 kings + 3 queens + 3 jacks + 3 nines + 9 diamonds = 24 outs.
You missed an ace.
One ace is a diamond. And actually, to correct myself, you have 26 outs on the river, not 27, because one of those would be a diamond too.
The gives your opponent a boat, so can't be counted, either.
Thank you, good point. So 23 outs on the turn, 25 on the river is the most I can think of.

And of course, this would only ever be relevant in a situation where you knew your opponent had that hand, etc.
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Zangief
Old 02-02-2005, 08:45 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Just to make sure, I tried a double belly buster straight flush draw. No more outs showed up.

You: :Qs::Ts:
Opponent:

Board: :As::Js:

Outs: 3 x Q, 3 x T, 3 x A, 3 x J, 3 x K, 3 x 9, 7 diamonds (not 8 or 2) = 25
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dalecooper
Old 02-02-2005, 09:18 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangief
Just to make sure, I tried a double belly buster straight flush draw. No more outs showed up.

You: :Qs::Ts:
Opponent:

Board: :As::Js:

Outs: 3 x Q, 3 x T, 3 x A, 3 x J, 3 x K, 3 x 9, 7 diamonds (not 8 or 2) = 25
Yeah, same thing basically, because you have the OESD on the previos example. The most outs possible on any straight draw is 8 (or 6, when you strip out the redundant flush outs).
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ArcticKnight
Old 02-04-2005, 12:24 AM #20 (permalink)  
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I think there are more outs than 23 or 25 avaibable, but you would need a simulator to confirm it.

Let's say I have AKd

opponent has 2/3os

Flop is 9d, 10c, 8d

The only outs that your opponent has is 6 out of 45 (47 if we assume he doesn't know your cards).

All the remaining 39 cards are outs for you.

There could be ties if the board flops a straight, Flush (except diamonds), or boat.

two pairs on board and Quads would be OK, cause u have A kicker

There are probaby more than 30 outs here, but a program would need to calcuate the combination of out cards that are Ok individually, but not OK when combined.

Did that make any sense???
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
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Usuyami
Old 02-04-2005, 12:52 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
I think there are more outs than 23 or 25 avaibable, but you would need a simulator to confirm it.

Let's say I have AKd

opponent has 2/3os

Flop is 9d, 10c, 8d

The only outs that your opponent has is 6 out of 45 (47 if we assume he doesn't know your cards).

All the remaining 39 cards are outs for you.

There could be ties if the board flops a straight, Flush (except diamonds), or boat.

two pairs on board and Quads would be OK, cause u have A kicker

There are probaby more than 30 outs here, but a program would need to calcuate the combination of out cards that are Ok individually, but not OK when combined.

Did that make any sense???
Eh, when people say outs, I think it is meant as in the sense that you are currently losing and how many cards remaining in the deck can give you the winning hand. In your example, the Ace is already winning the hand, so when you are counting the outs, it should be for the guy with 23o.
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cartilago77
Old 02-04-2005, 12:59 AM #22 (permalink)  
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I guess to figure out how many are possible we first need to define "outs."

Is an out to you how many cards in the deck are available to turn your hand from a dog into a winner

-or-

Is an out any card that does not adversely affect your hand.

Because in Arctic Knight's scenario, i don't really consider those "outs" as you are already dominating the hand and are not looking for a way out to win. Your opponet is calculating outs at this point, you are calculating safety cards.
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elanto
Old 02-04-2005, 01:13 AM #23 (permalink)  
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yeah the most i could think of was 25 to :P


-anto
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ArcticKnight
Old 02-04-2005, 01:32 AM #24 (permalink)  
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oooops you guys are right.

though "outs" is open to interpretation, I think I'm stretching it when you are known to be ahead already.

In real life though we are calucating what we think are outs, some of which just get us deeper into a lost hand.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 02-04-2005, 01:40 AM #25 (permalink)  
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It's a trick question anyway. Poker isn't about the cards.

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elanto
Old 02-04-2005, 01:45 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
It's a trick question anyway. Poker isn't about the cards.

-'rilla
lol rilla always giving ur .02


-anto
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Fortune 500
Old 02-04-2005, 12:31 PM #27 (permalink)  
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I'm reading SSH right now, and they've come up with an example where you're behind n the turn, but all 44 remaining cards will give you an out to either a split pot or a win. So I guess 44 outs is the most mathematically possible. HEre's the example, lifted directly from a hand quiz on counting outs in SSH:

Your Hand: Ad 2d
Your Opponent: As 3s

Board:Ac 8d 8h 2h

A: You have two outs to win (2 deuces) and 42 outs to tie (every other card). The pair of eights counterfeits your bottom pair, so you have aces and eights with a deuce. Your opponent has aces and eights with a trey, so he is currently "ahead." A deuce o the river gives you deuces full of aces, but it does not improve your opponent. Any other card counterfeits your opponents kicker - he cannot win. Even a trey counterfiets his kicker, since it will leave you with aces and eights with a trey.

Get your own operations graphic here:
http://operations.talkingapes.com
 
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Waggho
Old 02-04-2005, 01:05 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Your Hand: Ad 2d
Your Opponent: As 3s

Board:Ac 8d 8h 2h
Ehm... you´re not behind, you have 2pair.
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Fortune 500
Old 02-04-2005, 01:37 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waggho
Quote:
Your Hand: Ad 2d
Your Opponent: As 3s

Board:Ac 8d 8h 2h
Ehm... you´re not behind, you have 2pair.
Look at it closer... You're TECHNICALLY outkicked.
Your hand:AA882
Opponent:AA883

Get your own operations graphic here:
http://operations.talkingapes.com
 
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dalecooper
Old 02-04-2005, 01:43 PM #30 (permalink)  
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That's a great example. The entire deck as outs... brilliant.
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Zangief
Old 02-04-2005, 03:19 PM #31 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortune 500
You have two outs to win (2 deuces) and 42 outs to tie (every other card).
While I'm amazed by this example, I don't think the outs are counted correctly. Outs to a split must be halved, since you are winning half as much money. So in this case, you have 2 outs + 42 / 2 outs = 2 + 21 = 23. This is fewer than the earlier examples.
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Fortune 500
Old 02-04-2005, 04:10 PM #32 (permalink)  
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I guess it depends on what you classify as an out. What's funny is the same book (SSH) has a nice section on partial outs, but neglects to pay attention to it when counting hidden outs.

Don't bitch at me, man... I'm just quoting

Get your own operations graphic here:
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gregor
Old 02-04-2005, 04:23 PM #33 (permalink)  

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there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

great, so you can maximize outs with AKs vs 23o....whatever.....
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a500lbgorilla
Old 02-04-2005, 04:26 PM #34 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregor
there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....
Why is this?

I have JT and flopped an OESD but don't have odds to chase. But I read my opponent for 77. Now I do have odds to chase with the 6 extra outs to a better pair.

This was just a fun little question, anyway.

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Fortune 500
Old 02-04-2005, 04:41 PM #35 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregor
there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

great, so you can maximize outs with AKs vs 23o....whatever.....
who crapped in your cheerios?

Get your own operations graphic here:
http://operations.talkingapes.com
 
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dalecooper
Old 02-04-2005, 05:09 PM #36 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortune 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregor
there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....

great, so you can maximize outs with AKs vs 23o....whatever.....
who crapped in your cheerios?
My bad. I really, really had to go.
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Hubris1
Old 02-05-2005, 08:37 AM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregor
there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....
You're throwing away a huge number of starting hands if you can't compute outs and translate those to pot odds. Or you are using those hands, not calculating your outs and throwing away money.
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Tim Vecchioni
Old 02-06-2005, 11:06 PM #38 (permalink)  
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glad i started such a nice topic for once... and a i read all the replies... it looks like 25 is gonna be the most... i sat down for a good hour searching for hands most i could come up with was 25... so im gonna put that as my final answer.
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Wet_DreaMer
Old 02-07-2005, 01:51 PM #39 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangief
Just to break the idea, because I'm an ass like that:

You: :Ac: :As:
Opponent: :7c: :2d:

Flop: :Ad: :Ah: :Kh:

The remaining 43 cards in the deck are all outs, because your opponent is drawing dead.

I couldn't beat 26, so I went with this. Feel free to flog me, while I try to think of a real answer .... :D

The turn is the :Ad: , river is a Joker.
Misdeal is declared dealer is fired, casino erupts in to chaos and while the fight around you distracts you the other guy steals all the chips off the table and flies to Bermuda.


Hey! It could happen!
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Tim Vecchioni
Old 02-09-2005, 10:11 AM #40 (permalink)  
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lmfao... COULD... however unlikely
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gregor
Old 02-09-2005, 01:01 PM #41 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregor
there is no point determining outs knowing what the opponent has....
Why is this?

I have JT and flopped an OESD but don't have odds to chase. But I read my opponent for 77. Now I do have odds to chase with the 6 extra outs to a better pair.

This was just a fun little question, anyway.

-'rilla
obviously, I'm not saying calculating outs isn't important...just that in most situations, if you have AKs, you aren't going to be putting someone on a 23 with junk on the board....
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