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Misjudged timing

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Sheetah

05-16-2007, 10:30 PM Post subject: Misjudged timing

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 278

hand #1 (from memory):
NL$10 6max
I've been running good, raising and cbet-ing alot and pushing people around (no showdown yet). VILLAIN looks fishy: calling to hit the flop, chasing draws etc.
VILLAIN has ~$7, HERO covers
PREFLOP: all limp, HERO [K,K] pots it from BB, VILLAIN calls (pot: ~$1.8)
FLOP: K 9 4
Personally I'm big fan of fastplaying monsters and since I've been so aggro and chances were he is dying to look me up, it took me like second to decide to bet this strong hoping he's connected with this flop and is sick of being pushed around
HERO bets $1.8, VILLAIN raises ~$6 (All in) ...
He had Q9.

(there were some similar hands in between)

hand #2
$10 HU SNG
VILLAIN was very aggressive in position, betting (pot size) pretty much every time I checked to him. Once the blind reached t25/t50 with stacks ~t1200 (effective, he covers) I started to catch some cards and check/raised him (All in) like crazy. He folded every time I did this.
VILLAIN (SB/BN) calls t25, HERO [T,7] checks
(pot: t100)
FLOP: T 7 5
HERO checks, VILLAIN bets t100
At first moment slowplaying looked like good idea, but then I remembered he's probably sick of me pushing him, so ...
HERO raises t1150 (All in), VILLAIN calls
He had J5.

So, what's the point?

At first moment I didn't even realize there's connection between these hands when it suddenly 'clicked' : he misread my slight (but not too long) delay before acting. I was very aggressive, getting away with it and opponent is certainly waiting for good spot to get me 'with my pants down'. But why did they pick these exact spots? Why not earlier? Or little later?

Might it be that he, while waiting for good opportunity, suddenly noticed that I took a little longer to bet and went like: 'That's it! I've got him!'? If so than it opens lots of questions ...
Should this factor be important part of my game?
Might this be a profitable donk-raise-inducer when I need it?
Could it be the reason why my last night's big bluff got called with some awful [censored]?

Anyone noticed something similar or is it just me?

Just remember, this is not about stealing blinds or winning small-ish pots with cbets, but playing HUGE pots and stacking/destacking.

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sandstorm

05-17-2007, 06:56 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 573

I don't know, they were probably just tired of you betting and running them over all the time and decided to take a stand. Just why you should play as you did (don't start slowplaying when you hit). Maybe the timing was a small tell but I wouldn't put so much focus on it (unless you start doing really obvius things). I try to pause a moment every time I know I'm not folding right away, to avoid giving timing tells off.

>3

this is my favourite part of the post
it looks like angry boobs

Sheetah

05-17-2007, 07:37 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 278

OK ... and now I just remembered of the opposite case. It was me on the wrong end. Basically I was up to someone and he raised as usual, I called and hit middle pair and then he hesitated for about (slightly less then) a second before cbet-ing hard ... I did notice that something is unusual, figured that to be a good sign and lost all to his flopped set.

Only then did I realize: "Of course! How stupid I was. Most of the time he's supposed to have [censored]. And sudden change should actually mean that this time he has something."

I dunno, maybe it's just few hands like above that made me give some extra attention to this (that is certainly not on the top 10 list).

badgers

05-17-2007, 08:12 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Spewing

Posts: 3,372

From playwinningpoker.com

Quote:

Online Poker Tells
The in-turn buttons lead to the most obvious tell unique to online poker. If the blinking light representing a player acts immediately, it's likely this person has clicked the box of an in-turn action. It is very often easy to determine when a player has a no-brainer hand. The immediate "check" can often incredibly revealing. If you are first to act, and for some reason take a moment before checking, and your three opponents immediately check behind you like rifle fire, this is a tell as big as Texas. They ain't got nuthin'.

Another common situation... the first player takes a moment, then finally checks. You have the "bet/raise in turn" button checked, so your bet appears, but instantly the player next to you raises. Uh-oh, he had the bet/raise button checked too, and didn’t care what you or the first player did. That tells a lot more than a just normal raise would -- an awful lot more.

Besides the speed of action resulting from using the buttons, other online tells can be discerned from how slow a player commonly acts on their hand. Players who are consistently super-slow (rude human speedbumps) are likely not paying attention to the game, either because they are playing two games and are not competent at it, or because they are doing other work at home. Either way, if all of a sudden this person plays a hand crisply and promptly and aggressively... well, they got somethin’.

"The Stall" is a common tell among average or slightly below average players. When the last card in Holdem or Omaha makes a coordinated board (making a nut hand like a flush), the mediocre player pauses as if thinking, and then finally bets. This pause usually means "powerhouse" or at least that the bettor thinks he has a powerhouse. It's a comically inept tell in its obviousness. (Some people also use The Stall as a reverse tell.)

bigslikk

05-17-2007, 10:39 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Location: Chicago

Posts: 445

psychology, the timing tells produce an effect.

clearly the 'auto-check' = weakness
the 'stall' call= debating call / fold weak hand
the 'stall' bet = wondering how much to milk
the 'auto bet'/ instabet = bet no matter what (bluff)

i try to abuse the timing tells. in position, with air... stalll. stall.. stall painfully.. then minbet (or some value bet). psychology, how can villain call that w/o a solid? it screams hand.

also, checking the 'check' box or the 'instaminbet' box when i have a monster, like a straight or a boat. looks like im some sort of idiot, gets action.

preflop, holding aces, kings. 3second push allin. here's the logic. 1) if u insta push- that implies a good-lookin hand, b/c thats all u did, lookd at it and clicked to bet 'all". 2) if you wait an hour, (stall) it might seem an obvious ploy or some con to get callers. 2-3 seconds = "hmm.. should I? screw it wtf".

I don't know that's what I"ve been trying.

zenbitz

05-17-2007, 10:58 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

I think you have to be extremely careful about timing tells when multitabling/opps who are multitabling. Playing 4-8 tables has the effect of randomizing your timing tells (except if you check auto buttons). Also opps multiabling probably can't read your timing at all, unless they happen to be watching your table.

So, if you are throwing fake timing tells or reading timing tells be sure you know how many tables your opps are playing.

Sheetah

05-17-2007, 11:12 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 278

@badgers:
@bigslikk:
Yes, Yes, exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.

IMO timing tells are little underrated. I've noticed strange thing: in lots of high stakes discussions, every now and then someone will say like 'I called/bet because of how he timed his call/bet ... '. I even remember michael1123's post (think it was set of queens on four flush board) when he justified his bet with 'I had a timing tell'. And at the same time I don't remember seing a single small stakes thread with the word 'timing' in it. Coincidence?

Sheetah

05-17-2007, 11:23 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 278

@zenbitz:
Yes multitabling is the problem and then again it's not, really. My main target is Mr Fish. And they don't usually play 8 tables. And even if he plays 2 or 3, the fact that he is involved in the pot should be enough to have him fully concentrated on my table => tells should be more or less reliable. (makes sense?)

Actually the only two problems I see are: 1) multitabling myself, so it's hard to spot these subtleties and 2) server lagging

LordVTR

05-18-2007, 11:50 AM

#9 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2006

Location: Leaving the building.......thank you very much

Posts: 104

While there may be some merit to these timing tells, I would be loathe to base my whole read of a situation on them. For sure the insta check/insta raise certainly tells us something about what a player thinks of his hand. However, when it comes to players taking longer than usual to act, this could purely be due to them experiencing a poor connection and may appear to be taking longer than usual to bet as a result. Sometimes I bet and there is a delay of up to 10 secs before the action shows on the table (and this is with broadband). Personally, I always count to at least 5 before taking any action unless I know I'm folding junk pre flop in ep.

Lord VTR
Grant me the strength to accept the things I cant change, the courage to change the things I can........and the wisdom to know the difference.

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