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minraises - any good place to use them?

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stuck

01-17-2007, 07:03 PM Post subject: minraises - any good place to use them?

#1 (permalink)

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I was thinking about this last night, and this post reminded me of it: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-49602.htm

There must be some good places to use minraises against good players. The main sort of play I can think of is to minraise on the flop with position hoping for the chance to check-behind on the turn (free card play) (or to make it seem like you want a free turn card, etc).

Other possible uses:
-Marginal value bet on the river
-??

Anyone ever do this PF to build a pot? It doesn't seem like a good play for all the obvious reasons, but I can't help but wonder if it should actually be completely useless.

Obviously at low levels don't bother - but at higher levels -- does anyone have any thoughts?

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bbqsquirrel

01-17-2007, 07:21 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I like to do so when the min. raise already denies your opponent proper drawing odds. The commonest situation would be a set against an obvious overpair. Villain thinks I have a weaker overpair (or TPTK), that I am raising for information, and will almost always 3-bet, often all-in, which is a dream situation for me.

Examples

http://www.pokerhand.org/?742743
99, flopped middle set against an obvious big pair.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?646699
66, middle set against a tight opponent.

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stuck

01-17-2007, 07:25 PM

#3 (permalink)

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minraising a set is often highly transparent.

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zenbitz

01-17-2007, 08:55 PM

#4 (permalink)

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I will occasionally m/r PF from EP - on a relatively tight table. I do this (again, just sometimes) with stuff like very low PPs (22-55), high SCs (JTs/QJs/KQs), and AA/KK.

I think of it as something like an "alternate limp". In better position, most of these hands become more of a raise than a limp, so I raise 3x or 4x. In EP, with drawing hands, a m/r is nice because you don't mind playing biggish pots multiway plus if you get re-raised it's going to be either an easy call for implied odds, or an easy fold (if for example a short stack sticks 1/2 his stack in).

I usually just limp UNLESS EP raises have been getting too much respect. Then I get worried about stealing the blinds with AA.... hence I set up m/r with AA with other min/raises. It's true, some times you end up with AA 5 handed in a 10BB pot, so it helps if you flop a set... (and for gods sake, don't stack off with an overpair!)

Wow, that makes it sound like I do it a bunch... I should check, but I would be surprised if I open m/r PF more than 1 in 10 orbits.

Post flop... sometimes a min/raise just happens to make the pot the right size or get the proper % of calls (while not giving odds), but again, I do it sparingly.

min/raising is extra fun vs. "regulars" who automatically disrespect it.

Chopper

01-17-2007, 09:30 PM

#5 (permalink)

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tight tables to induce action.

smallish pots with your draws.

sets in small pots.

but, really and truly, its a donkey move, imo. so, i guess it can be good for table image, too. just use it sparingly.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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stuck

01-17-2007, 09:37 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

min/raising is extra fun vs. "regulars" who automatically disrespect it.

Yeah. That definitely seems like it could turn into an Nth level type move. But probably just sparingly.

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I'd drop in the evening..

jackvance

01-17-2007, 09:45 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Minraising preflop is typically bad because you tip off the strength of your hand but give your opponent odds to suck out on you.

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bigslikk

01-17-2007, 11:30 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Minraises generally suck- the move resembles calling but more money is put in. Generally I only see two low-limit situations where avg. joe poker (idiot) minraises:

1. He has a monster (QQ+, or on the flop, a set, straight, flush) "I want more money in but I don't want you to fold"

2. He has a flush draw, sometimes open-ended st8 draw. "Hmm I saw in a book that semi-bluffing is good (free river sometimes) so I will put in juuuuuust enough to take control and then check behind".

The two scenarios might seem at odds with each other (did he flop a monster or draw?) but really they're not. On a two-tone board I'd peg the min-raise as indicating a flush draw pretty often.

To answer your question: only good time to minraise is when you're pretending to be a donk v. a smarter player and want to lead on that you either have 1. a monster or 2. a flush draw when you don't.

dev

01-18-2007, 09:31 AM

#9 (permalink)

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I LOVE the preflop minraise (used sparingly).

Keep in mind I don't play shortstack poker very often. I minraise with all sorts of stuff to see flops cheap from early position. It puts everyone on edge. If I'd been playing tight, they figure it's a monster, and a lot of times I end up heads up against the bb with a hand you just can't put me on. I usually play a style that's designed to stack people, so a move that disguises a hand well for cheap is a perfect play a few hours into a session.

Late in SNGs (and tourneys rarely), if I'm a big stack and there's a few tight hangers-on, when they're in the pot I min-raise instead of calling preflop as a rule. This puts more pressure on them and allows for bigger pots to steal on the flop or the turn.

Negreanu wrote in an article (within the past couple months) about coming to Foxwoods for the WPC. He said he would only minraise preflop because players on the east coast tend to overplay hands post-flop (grrrrr....). This would allow them to get in the hand more often and he would outplay them post-flop.

Hey, don't knock it till you try it.

jackvance

01-18-2007, 09:37 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Hm, I don't think I've minraised preflop EVER. Maybe I *should* try it some time, lol.

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XTR1000

01-18-2007, 11:50 AM

#11 (permalink)

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sometimes i click accidentially the minraise button preflop.

in hu games i might minbet the flop, if both limped/checked in.

against habitual minraisers in hu situations its a way to get proper drawing odds.

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Miffed22001

01-18-2007, 01:56 PM

#12 (permalink)

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you can miniraise when someone makes a real bet into a real sized pot.
i.e if the pot is raised and reraised and someone leads hard into you on a rag flop and you dont have much money behind (i.e you arent folding no matter what happens) then miniraising isnt horrible.
There are also value miniraises if somebody makes a block-bet type lead on the river (we all know how hard it is to fold to that bet)

Other than that it doesnt have a value, and it certainly doesnt as a 'finding out where i am bet'
(also note that against a player with an overpair, who likes to 3bet on a draw heavy board, miniraising is sometimes smart when you have a set)

Anyone who miniraises preflop is a fish, no exceptions it is not a defendable play. If you want to play something raise and build a pot worth taking down.

dev

01-18-2007, 07:11 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Anyone who miniraises preflop is a fish, no exceptions it is not a defendable play. If you want to play something raise and build a pot worth taking down.

I resemble that remark!

Seriously, If you generalize like this about any move in poker you're just wrong. Every move has it's place. Maybe not as a standard play, but it's got it's place damnit.

Warpe

01-18-2007, 07:15 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

you can miniraise when someone makes a real bet into a real sized pot...

...to stimulate a shove over.

donkbee

01-18-2007, 07:54 PM

#15 (permalink)

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I think I've done it recently when I was new to a table and I called preflop. It was HU and there was a flush draw on the table, and I cold called his c bet. Turn came 3 to the flush and he bet again and I min raised trying to rep the flush as a donkey. It worked, so I guess he thought I was a fish after that.

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jackvance

01-19-2007, 07:49 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Yesterday a guy grossly overbet the pot on the turn into my nut flush, so I minraised him. He obviously really liked his hand and the only other sensible thing (due to the size of his bet) would have been a shove, but I wanted to entice him to shove. (he had bottom set, lol)

I'm with miffed that minraising preflop has no real place in poker.. I've never done it (except a bunch of times by accident ofc) but I'd love to hear some theoretical situations where minraising pre would be a good idea..

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Miffed22001

01-19-2007, 12:13 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Anyone who miniraises preflop is a fish, no exceptions it is not a defendable play. If you want to play something raise and build a pot worth taking down.

I resemble that remark!

Seriously, If you generalize like this about any move in poker you're just wrong. Every move has it's place. Maybe not as a standard play, but it's got it's place damnit.

please sit at my tables. If you minraise preflop you dont understand concepts and/or you are missing value.

Halv

01-19-2007, 03:12 PM

#18 (permalink)

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A preflop minraise is totally acceptable at a passive table imho, just to sweeten the pot a bit for when I hit my hand. Trouble is, I don't run into passive enough tables all that often anymore.

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zenbitz

01-19-2007, 04:22 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Anyone who miniraises preflop is a fish, no exceptions it is not a defendable play. If you want to play something raise and build a pot worth taking down.
...
If you minraise preflop you dont understand concepts and/or you are missing value.

This is straight-jacketed 2nd level thinking.

dev

01-19-2007, 06:23 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Loose-passive table
67s in the CO
3 limpers to you
200BB stacks.

If you fold, well... you suck.
If you call, you see the flop for cheaper, and the pot is probably6BB
If you minraise, the pot is 10.5-12BB and you still have the same number of players to pay you off or give you drawing odds.
If you 3-4x raise(or worse, 3x+limpers, 6x), you may very well lose some people who might otherwise pay you off.

I have to think the most profitable play here is a minraise.

It works better in B+M because you can usually get a read on whether anyone in front is trying to check-raise. That sort of play wouldn't be likely on a L/P table though.

Miffed22001

01-19-2007, 10:04 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

raise to 3bbs, build a pot. Nobody folds to the raise which is exactly what you want.
What would you do with 66 here or Axhearts or JTs or...? the list of hands goes on.
Sure you might flop absolutly nothing, but when you do the pot has at least been built. Go pokerstove the equity of 67s versus a number of hands. It works the same way as a ten way all in does, 67s has more equity even than AA.

Miniraising here with your hand loses value versus a 3bbs raise. If you raise to 3bbs behind a bunch of limpers players will call the 3bbs when they would have called 2bbs.
As i said, miniraising loses value or shows a distinct lack of understanding of core poker concepts. You are either isolating or pot building, thats what raising fundamentally accomplishes IMO.

Dave Davis

01-19-2007, 10:15 PM

#22 (permalink)

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I will try this strategy of minraising preflop from LP to sweeten the pot. I have realized that sometimes it isn't profitable to raise normally (4bb+number of limpers) in position with SC cause you have a little folding equity. On the other hand, if I just call, people are not willing to go broke if I hit. Pot is too small.

Minraise might be a great way to ensure better implied odds. Never really tried that but we are thinking people and can't just relly on some old prejudices that minraising is only for fishes.

zenbitz

01-19-2007, 10:43 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Minraise might be a great way to ensure better implied odds.

True versus a re-raise - either they raise too little, and your implied odds are better or they raise too big and you get away cheaper.

Quote:

You are either isolating or pot building, thats what raising fundamentally accomplishes IMO.

Or for deception (to force opponents to make more or bigger mistakes), or for value (when only better hands call 3x).

It's obviously a continuum. For some set of players and hands, a min/raise WILL be the most +EV case. I don't think anyone was suggesting min/raising "standardly".

In the most recent case... I don't see that 3x is much better or worse than 2x. 3x certainly carries a higher risk (50%) to see a flop that you will probably miss, but of course the pot is bigger when you hit. Also, it is not ALWAYS true that 3x and 2x get the same number of callers. Finally, in CO there are 3 players behind, do you want the m to fold or call? Whichever, it matters where you limp, raise 2x, 3x, 6x whatever.

Warpe

01-19-2007, 10:48 PM

#24 (permalink)

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2x gets way more callers than 3x, imo, basically because players like me think "donkey" and tend to ignore the raise completely.

KoRnholio

01-19-2007, 11:13 PM

#25 (permalink)

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I've seen it used somewhat sucessfully on the flop when in position to get a free card (limit-poker style).

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Miffed22001

01-20-2007, 10:27 AM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

I've seen it used somewhat sucessfully on the flop when in position to get a free card (limit-poker style).

yeah and its probably the most obvious line in poker.

jackvance

01-20-2007, 11:25 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

Loose-passive table
67s in the CO
3 limpers to you
200BB stacks.

Very rare that all the loose passives have 200BB. More like half of them have <50BB in practice.

Quote:

If you fold, well... you suck.
If you call, you see the flop for cheaper, and the pot is probably6BB
If you minraise, the pot is 10.5-12BB and you still have the same number of players to pay you off or give you drawing odds.

What is the advantage of a minraise over a limp here? I would seriously like to discuss this? You think you have a better chance of getting paid off if you hit or what?

I do remember my friends used to use a minraise preflop as a "I want to see a flop with a speculative hand" play. I think they stopped doing it after I had a talk about it.

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Margin Of Error

01-20-2007, 06:47 PM

#28 (permalink)

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min raising preflop is retarded imho, it is however an excellent way to build pots on 4th and 5th street versus opponents who dont view it as a sign of strength.

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dev

01-20-2007, 07:26 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Well, we could get back into the online vs. B+M debate...

Go to a casino, buy in to a $1/$2NL game and look around you. Chances are you'll see a fair share of L/P 200bb stacks.

Online I've seen it, but not as often. It probably has to do with the pace of play and the boredom factor.

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