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roy3
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06-22-2005, 08:22 PM
Post subject: mini raises - are they ever correct preflop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13
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The concept of mini raises seems to be a big NONO in NL circles.
But what about the following situation:
There are several limpers, you are in LP and have a weak hand you’d normally just limp with given the good odds you get.
You do however have a positional advantage that will last, which by itself enhances your relative chances of winning the pot.
If you here just mini-raise the pot with the intention of having all limpers just call, you are building the pot a little when you have a relative advantage without risking much.
Also, when you are known for sometimes raising with crappy hands like 85s, or 65o, you probably will also enhance your chances of having weak callers when you have great hands and raise big time.
So, given the above argument – is there anything fundamentally wrong with mini-raising in the situation described?
?
I read about this kind of play somewhere, but can’t remember where.
Any thoughts on this one?
/
roy3
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I use min-raises pre-flop a fair amount. Here are some reasons why:
- I want to build a pot but not drive out competition. I sometimes min-raise with suited connectors or small pocket pairs for this reason. If I hit my hand strong, I stand to win a bigger pot and there are more potential victims to play second best, and make me even more.
- I have a legitimately strong hand in late position at a tight table and it's folded all the way around to me. Some players bet hard to try to take the blinds; I will often min-raise to encourage at least the big blind to play with me, with what is undoubtedly a worse hand.
- I have a top three hand (QQ - AA) in early position at a highly aggressive table in which almost all pots are raised pre-flop. Particularly if there's a LAgg player in late position who is always stealing. I min-raise here expecting a re-raise, in which case I can come over the top and get a very big pot. But this is highly situational and sometimes doesn't work out as planned.
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bair
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
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small pockets and suited connectors w/ a lot of limpers
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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problem with habitually minraising weak hands such as low pockets and suited connectors, is that aware opps will catch on and start raising your minraises forcing you to fold.
i caught on to some guy doing it at a 5/5 game and just kept coming over the top. needless to say, he stopped raising his ax suited.
at an aware table its an invitation to be raised.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Yes. Luckily, many online tables are not very aware. For the aware tables, that is the specific reason that I sometimes min-raise other hands (especially in late position), don't always min-raise pairs and connectors, and also make a point of calling re-raises if the implied odds are there. If I min-raise with pocket 2s and get re-raised 3x my bet, and we both have deep stacks many times the amount of the call I have to make, I am happy to make that call and hope for a set.
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spino1i
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 25/50's f'in hard!
Posts: 893
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I minraise small pocket pairs to build the pot up in case I hit a set. I minraise semi-strong hands in MP-LP to entice people in front of me to fold (in the hopes of buying out the button) and to make sure the blinds dont get a free ride to the flop. I minraise in EP with really good hands (except QQ, JJ, and AK which i raise to 3x BB) for same reason.
If I minraise with PP in late position and they reraise back from EP or the blinds another 4X BB or something I'm happy calling them and playing for a set with position.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I minraise in EP with hands like QT-QJ-KT-KJ. Basically any non premium raising hand gets minraised from EP to achieve some form of isolation while betting for value. If I hit the flop strong I bet right out. If not I check through and draw for the right price.
I don't limp with raising hands from any position. It decreases the value of my hand.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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BIGandRICH
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jazz Club
Posts: 419
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generally i won't min raise. In LP with many limpers most of the table is just going to call you and you have gained nothing, your still facing a table of random hands. So like has been said, if you want to build the pot a bit, otherwise you're looking to isolate things a bit and a min raise will almost never achieve that.
On rare ocassion i will do it with AA, KK, infront of certain players as they like to push people around, and will often raise me 10-15 BB, at which point they become comitted to seeing the flop and will call me if i go all in.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rondavu
I minraise in EP with hands like QT-QJ-KT-KJ. Basically any non premium raising hand gets minraised from EP to achieve some form of isolation while betting for value.
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those kind of hands i like to limp from late or fold, unless i'm intending to take the pot regardless of what cards come out. In which case I need to raise bigger because i want to be heads up.
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villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
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DimitriT
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 614
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I hate seeing a constant stream of minraises from a plr. The reason is that it gives little information but serves to build the pot and draw in alot of marginal hands. This makes it more difficult for a strong hand to isolate. In this situation, I'm forced to tighten up my PF play since there are probably more marginal hands in that could upset me. I won't bother limping with QT or KT for instance if I have to face a minraise with 4 opps.
I can see how minraises may draw in loose plrs and push out tight plrs so from that point of view it may be a beneficial play if you have a drawing hand like pkt pairs or JTs. I can't see much other benefit.
I will sometimes use minraises to help get reads on plrs. I find that plrs who fold to minraises are tight and those that call are loose.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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i like other players min raise, it allows me to play my suited connectors and small pairs cheaply and bust the guy trying to get cute with his AK.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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BIGandRICH
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jazz Club
Posts: 419
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Element187
i like other players min raise, it allows me to play my suited connectors and small pairs cheaply and bust the guy trying to get cute with his AK.
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hell yes! its great when the flop comes out K36, you're holding 66, and he bets pot. You can raise all in right there half the time, he's almost drawing dead and you know that he cant let go of that pretty little AK. Because as that guy told me the other day.. "WTF?!?! AK never loses!!!''
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villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Some people seem to have a tendency to raise the minimum with certain speculative hands like A-x suited and marginal overcards, but to me this seems silly. Why enter the pot for more than the minimum when your hand has almost no value without specific community cards?
If I decide my hand is ahead, I'll make a standard raise, if I think my hand is behind, but still has some strong potential, I'll limp in or call, and if my hand is behind and has very little potential I fold (assuming I'm playing my hand for value).
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Why enter the pot for more than the minimum when your hand has almost no value without specific community cards?
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Because many many players at low stakes will enter a pot with garbage, and call raises with it -- I mean Axo and 97o and 64s. And many players will call little raises out of the blinds with literally anything, esp. if there are 4+ people in play.
Juicing the pot is a great way to maximize your return on these mistakes. With e.g. Axs you have a pot-equity edge on these guys. Whenever you have an equity edge, you want to build the pot.
It's also easy to get away from in the event you get reraised, miss the flop entirely, etc.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
If I decide my hand is ahead, I'll make a standard raise, if I think my hand is behind, but still has some strong potential, I'll limp in or call, and if my hand is behind and has very little potential I fold (assuming I'm playing my hand for value).
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To put it another way: You don't need to have the best hand to minraise. If e.g. the pot equity divides up thus:
fish1: 15%
fish2: 15%
superfish: 5%
Daniel Negreanu: 35%
you: 30%
It doesn't matter than Daniel has the actual best hand; you are getting a 50% premium -- 30% versus 20% -- on any money you put in (assuming everyone calls, which is what you want with a minraise)
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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can someone explain the point of trying to build a pot preflop in NL? in limit, you do it so you have better odds to call postflop, but in NL the aggressor will often just bet more postflop and thus you gain nothing except having to deal with a bigger pot that will make others want to fight over it more.
if minraising with small suited connectors in LP is +EV, why don't they do it in limit? i'm not buying it.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Sometimes i like to juice the pot with small pocket pairs, but even then i'm usually betting 3-4xbb and trying to take it down on the flop regardless of whether i hit or not.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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whats the point of juicing the pot with small pps? there is a difference between isolating and juicing the pot.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Just so when i do hit my set it is more likely i will get action. Not alot usually happens when you hit a set with a 12 dollar pot at 2/4.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bmxicle
Just so when i do hit my set it is more likely i will get action. Not alot usually happens when you hit a set with a 12 dollar pot at 2/4.
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I guess, but you're also giving action to some completely random hand the other 9 times out of 10 when you miss. I'd rather invest the minimum until I've made my set.
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Zangief
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 370
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
If I decide my hand is ahead, I'll make a standard raise, if I think my hand is behind, but still has some strong potential, I'll limp in or call, and if my hand is behind and has very little potential I fold (assuming I'm playing my hand for value).
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To put it another way: You don't need to have the best hand to minraise. If e.g. the pot equity divides up thus:
fish1: 15%
fish2: 15%
superfish: 5%
Daniel Negreanu: 35%
you: 30%
It doesn't matter than Daniel has the actual best hand; you are getting a 50% premium -- 30% versus 20% -- on any money you put in (assuming everyone calls, which is what you want with a minraise) |
It took me a minute to figure out where 20% came from. In case anybody else had trouble with this: Since there are 5 players to the flop, each is putting in 20% of the money.
And the 50% premium is because 30% is 50% larger than 20%. Some people might think this is only a 10% premium ... but since you win nothing the times you lose and you win the entire pot the times you win, this is actually 50% more. (Having 10% equity doesn't mean you win 10% of the pot, it means you win the whole pot 10% of the time.)
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bmxicle
Just so when i do hit my set it is more likely i will get action. Not alot usually happens when you hit a set with a 12 dollar pot at 2/4.
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I guess, but you're also giving action to some completely random hand the other 9 times out of 10 when you miss. I'd rather invest the minimum until I've made my set. |
Fair enough, but in 6max i will usually raise it 3-4xbb and get one or two callers, and i can often take it down on the flop regardless of whether i hit my set or not. At a really loose or aggressive table i usually don't do this.
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