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daven

11-18-2007, 12:31 AM Post subject: min-raising, min-bets

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Playing short-handed LAG-Crazy these are the good oil. I'm experimenting with 70-30 raising normal-raising min, independent of cards. Seems to drive people crazy. Means my range can open up hugely as a min-raise after limpers could be kingz or J9s. Reliant on playing solid post-flop, but definitely seems to get the tables buzzing - even the tightest of weak-passives start to 3-bet. Thoughts?

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

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Miffed22001

11-18-2007, 09:56 AM

#2 (permalink)

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why minraise when you can raise it up for real and still build a bigger pot?

Deanglow

11-18-2007, 02:20 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2007

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Minraising has its merits in postflop situations when shortstacked and against LAGs or just donks in general. Minraising preflop is never a good idea unless you are building a pot with 22 UTG or something.

Chopper

11-18-2007, 04:48 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

minraising preflop after limpers is really bad. why string four guys along with KK when you can get one to come for the same buck-fitty?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

11-19-2007, 03:58 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

why minraise when you can raise it up for real and still build a bigger pot?

to let me open up my range, to get way more action on later streets and to have opps think I'm crazy. The only real requirements are the ability to fold on the turn and to avoid tilt when the player you have inspired to call your shove manages to suck out.

It's still an experiment at the moment, first 2.5k hands have been 28-19-4.5 and 14BB/100...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanglow

Minraising preflop is never a good idea unless you are building a pot with 22 UTG or something.

What about stuff like 9Js from button. It's a crazy fun high variance style and I'm liking it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

why string four guys along with KK when you can get one to come for the same buck-fitty?

cos playing like this really messes with a lot of players. Nothing wrong with min-raise KK from UTG then min re-raise the almost guaranteed big raise from button. All about mixing it up. This little experiment was inspired by your complaints about min-raises in other threads.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

martindcx1e

11-19-2007, 05:19 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

daven, hand examples please. i don't quite follow the gameplan here.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

daven

11-19-2007, 07:14 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

It's all about messing with the table dynamic. I think I'd have to post a whole session to let you see the players react. Destroys HUD-bots who don't distinguish between different types of bet sizing and expect that anyone playing 30-20 is crazy. Loads of people think that only fish min-raise pre-flop. Sets get paid off more. People get attached to overcards when they "catch" you raising 79s pre-flop.

You would pay a lot to lose the respect of all players at a table, Fnord advocates achieving this by buying in 50xbb, this way works too.

you also have to get a lot better at folding post-flop or after significant streets of investment. And identifying the correct boards to c-bet. And some players figure it out and start to destroy you with position = time to adapt or leave the table. And reads, reads are gold.

I'll post a few hands, I think they all show unusual table tendencies that I claim responsibility for.

Hand 1 - Villain is tight-passive. Note stack sizes.

Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed)
saw flop|saw showdown
Hero ($14.54)
BB ($1.95)
UTG ($5.21)
Button ($9.73)

Preflop: Hero is SB with [4d], [5c].
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold,

Hero raises to $0.2, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.50) [6h], [5h], [4c] (2 players)
Hero bets $0.5, UTG calls $0.50.

Turn: ($1.50) [9c] (2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, UTG calls $1.50.

River: ($4.50) [2d] (2 players)
Hero bets $2.25, UTG calls $2.25.

Final Pot: $9

Results in white below:
Hero has 4d 5c (two pair, fives and fours).
UTG doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins $9.

Hand 2 - recent and I remember it. Villain's hand was face up, hard to explain.

Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (3 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($5.20)
Hero ($13.12)
SB ($10.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with [9s], [Ts].
Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, BB raises to $1.3, Hero calls $0.90.

Flop: ($2.65) [5c], [9h], [3c] (2 players)
BB bets $4 (All-In), Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($10.65) [7s] (2 players, 1 all-in).

River: ($10.65) [Qd] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $10.65

Results in white below:
BB has Ah Qc (one pair, queens).
Hero has 9s Ts (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins $10.65.

Hand 3, this action only happens when you have managed to destroy your image...

Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed)
saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($7.30)
Hero ($27.89)
BB ($13.34)
UTG ($4.12)
MP ($12.19)
CO ($10.27)

Preflop: Hero is SB with [Ac], [Qc].
3 folds, Button calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.35, BB calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25.

Flop: ($1.05) [Qh], [As], [3h] (3 players)
Hero bets $1.05, BB raises to 2.1, Button calls $2.10, Hero raises to $9.45, BB raises to $13.09 (All-In), Button calls $4.85 (All-In), Hero calls $3.64.

Turn: ($34.18) [Kh] (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($34.18) [9s] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $34.18

Results in white below:
Hero has Ac Qc (two pair, aces and queens).
BB has Qs Jh (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $34.18.

and this sort of action becomes super common
Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed)

Button ($1.13)
SB ($4.55)
BB ($4.65)
Hero ($22.65)
MP ($12.67)
CO ($12.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with [Qs], [2s].
Hero raises to $0.2, MP calls $0.20, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, 1 fold.

Flop: ($0.70) [2c], [7d], [Kc] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.35, MP raises to $0.7, SB calls $0.70, Hero folds.

Turn: ($2.45) [5s] (2 players)
SB checks, MP bets $2.45, SB calls $2.45.

River: ($7.35) [9d] (2 players)
SB checks, MP bets $9.32 (All-In), SB calls $1.25 (All-In).

Final Pot: $17.92

Results in white below:
SB has Ks Jh (one pair, kings).
MP has Kh 9s (two pair, kings and nines).
Outcome: MP wins $17.92.

Chopper

11-19-2007, 01:33 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

glad i could be an inspiration...lol.

but, these couple hands look like you vary your raise size? is that standard for you? or did you go 2X + limpers?

...or do they even notice?

i have thought of opening up and dropping to 3X, but i dont welcome trash post flop. thing is...if i'm seeing trash post flop, that i cant read, why not lower the pfr a bit and cheapen the blow? besides, they arent stacking off anyway, so why go for the bet-sizing for stacks?

just a couple random thoughts.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

martindcx1e

11-19-2007, 03:01 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

i still don't see the point. sorry lol.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

daven

11-21-2007, 07:15 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, these couple hands look like you vary your raise size? is that standard for you?
...or do they even notice?

i have thought of opening up and dropping to 3X, but i dont welcome trash post flop. thing is...if i'm seeing trash post flop, that i cant read, why not lower the pfr a bit and cheapen the blow? besides, they arent stacking off anyway, so why go for the bet-sizing for stacks?
.

In this experiment it's all about varying bet sizes. Love checking to the river to show off 47s raised 5xbb UTG, but I tend to take down the pot instead. Definitely don't drop your standard betsize to 3x to open up, you'll destroy yourself. My standards tend to still be the classic 4x+1/limper, 3/4 pot c-bet etc., but about 30% of hands I play strange. Trash post flop is dangerous, I seem to be doing pretty well against opps at the level I'm playing at - but I'd soon switch to standard play if I felt at risk. As for not stacking off, I'm seeing loads more all-ins at tables I'm messing with like this. Average pot size is rocketing up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcxle

i still don't see the point. sorry lol.

no worries, I haven't been very eloquent on this one and I haven't figured out exactly what I'm doing yet either. If inspiration strikes I'll write more! at the moment I'm enjoying the experiment, think I'm learning a lot about poker at the moment and my bankroll is continuing to steadily (slowly) grow. Could be playing FullTilt this weekend, I'll find you at a table and let you see firsthand what happens to a table treated this way.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Chopper

11-21-2007, 12:40 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i'd like to see a hand history where daven minraises martin and martin folds because he thinks daven is a "tougher reg."

that would be priceless!!!!

jk, guys. i couldnt resist the joke at martin's expense.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

daven

11-26-2007, 03:30 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

ok, the people have spoken. And I'm pretty sure that while this may work ok at the limits I am playing, it is probably not optimal - and nor is it likely to transfer to higher levels well. Whereas playing 17-15-4 probably does. Cool. It was a fun experiment and I learnt loads, and I'm sure I'll find the occasional table where the lessons learnt will be invaluable. Still asking questions. Peace out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

This is why it will never be accepted and in fact is retarded, stupid, and not as +ev as making a real raise!!!!!!!
AND
you can see why you're wrong and your play is in fact terrible and remember why it is terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

Your lines are good but your bet sizing needs work, you are really loosing a lot of value with this min raising experiment. It's not good and hopefully you get over it soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

If I bet small like that I'd be poor.
AND Stop minraising. It makes your hands harder to play, and wins you less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PapalRage

dont min 3 bet preflop, and dont min raise on the flop.

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