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bigred

02-07-2005, 03:57 AM Post subject: Min bet raise trap

#1 (permalink)

PROFESSIONAL TROLL

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: Nest of Douchebags

Posts: 2,184

I was just wondering what everyone's view is on this. To clarify, you bet big PF and land something big on flop but you don't want to scare people off. There's not much of a draw on the flop so you don't really have to protect either. Here's an example of when I did it and why I want to know if this was a good play.

Transcript for game #1180306197 requested by bigred07(bgj4@cornell.edu)
*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #1180306197: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/02/06 - 23:49:48 (ET) Table 'Rutllant' Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: GenericSoda ($35.85 in chips)
Seat 2: MT123 ($8.20 in chips)
Seat 3: bigred07 ($34.75 in chips)
Seat 4: jshig ($9.65 in chips)
Seat 5: personacom ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 6: jwestmore ($32.10 in chips)
Seat 7: MikeBee ($10 in chips)
Seat 8: OverCardz ($10.70 in chips)
Seat 9: VOLS420 ($12.50 in chips)
VOLS420: posts small blind $0.10
GenericSoda: posts big blind $0.25
MikeBee: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bigred07 [Kc Ks]
MT123: calls $0.25
bigred07: raises $0.75 to $1
jshig: folds
personacom: folds
jwestmore: folds
MikeBee: calls $0.75
OverCardz: calls $1
VOLS420: folds
GenericSoda: folds
MT123: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [Jh 2s Kd]
MT123: checks
bigred07: bets $0.25
MikeBee: calls $0.25
OverCardz: raises $1 to $1.25
MT123: folds
bigred07: raises $1 to $2.25
MikeBee: folds
OverCardz: raises $7.45 to $9.70 and is all-in
bigred07: calls $7.45
*** TURN *** [Jh 2s Kd] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 2s Kd 4d] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bigred07: shows [Kc Ks] (three of a kind, Kings)
OverCardz: mucks hand
bigred07 collected $22.85 from pot
OverCardz leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24 | Rake $1.15
Board [Jh 2s Kd 4d 6s]
Seat 1: GenericSoda (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: MT123 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: bigred07 showed [Kc Ks] and won ($22.85) with three of a kind, Kings Seat 4: jshig folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: personacom folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: jwestmore folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: MikeBee folded on the Flop Seat 8: OverCardz (button) mucked [2d Jd] Seat 9: VOLS420 (small blind) folded before Flop

I'm thinking it should have been at least a 2-3 x bet to basically say "Hey I missed but here's my post flop aggression after a preflop raise". Luckily the other player was lured into the trap and taken to the cleaners.

LOL OPERATIONS

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JeffreyGB

02-07-2005, 04:14 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

I like the play, executed occasionally. It takes a classic example of weakness and pounces when someone attacks it. It's all about knowing what your opponent is going to try to do when they see that play. I've extended it at times to calling the flop and then checking/minbetting on the turn (or grossly 'overbetting'). Similar results.

It almost seems evil to punish people for learning to spot and attack weakness though, doesn't it? Except for the money

- Jeffrey

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bigred

02-07-2005, 04:28 AM

#3 (permalink)

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His chips said they liked me better anyway.

LOL OPERATIONS

FlyingSaucy

02-07-2005, 05:26 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,603

i love it. it works well against TAggs and especially LAggs. Not going to work on a rock for obvious reasons, but very nice.

It's almost like they don't respect your re-raise because of the initial weakness shown on the initial bet.

DrumzCT

02-07-2005, 01:42 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 159

Very nice. I had similiar play the other day (don't have the history but i should have saved it). Dealt AA and flopped quads. Most beautiful thing i've seen in my life.

SteveO

02-07-2005, 02:10 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 755

He had every right to think his 2 pair was best hand on that flop. He was hoping you had a K w/ no kicker. I think even if you were first to push AI he calls with that hand for $9, I would.

Nevertheless, the weak lead is an effective play and should be used sparingly to throw off opponents.

Here's one thing to keep in mind. Assuming no preflop raising and a small pot, there's no problem with a min bet. However, usually you are raising and making a probe or continuation bet on the flop which is more than a min bet. You want to keep you weak lead at or only slieghtly below this amount so you don't set off alarm bells at the table.

Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!

AllinLife

02-07-2005, 02:56 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 530

I think min bet followed by minraise spells NUTS

I think you played it horribly

"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen

r8ed

02-07-2005, 04:11 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,524

Great play. If you bet more you may have scared off a big pot. There was very little risk to let him hang around.

bigred

02-07-2005, 04:34 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by AllinLife

I think min bet followed by minraise spells NUTS

I think you played it horribly

I don't have a problem with critisism but I was wondering if you had a suggestion as how to play that situation correctly.

LOL OPERATIONS

twosevoff

02-07-2005, 04:39 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 526

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllinLife

I think min bet followed by minraise spells NUTS

I think you played it horribly

I agree. I know whenever I see a min bet after someone has raised preflop I get suspicious. Very often this means he have hit a high set. If he makes a min raise after the min bet, then I know he has a huge hand.

The min bet isn't a terrible play (though I probably just would have checked, or like you said, led out with a bigger, but still undersized amount). The min raise after it is a very dubious play though.

JeffreyGB

02-07-2005, 05:24 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

Maybe this play is transparent at higher stakes - I don't know because I don't play there. At the stakes I play at, enough people min-raise with crap that when you do it with good hands, there's a high likelihood that someone is going to see that as weakness and try to scare you away. Again, I'd use this sparingly, but I've got a number of hand histories showing it works at .10/.25 level.

- Jeffrey

I run a training site...

Check out strategy videos at GrinderSchool.com, from $10 / month.

Spook

02-07-2005, 05:47 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Denver, CO

Posts: 388

I don't think its horrible, but I like a 1/2 pot bet on the flop here whether I've hit it or not. If I've hit it I dont want them getting odds to just call and try and make their straight. If I've missed (assuming the K on the board was lower instead) I dont want them getting a shot at an A coming up.. something very likely to have called the PFR. A re-raise pretty much locks them on a set or two pair, and I can act accordingly at that point.

I don't slowplay anything less than a nut flush, but maybe I'm just jaded.

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dalecooper

02-07-2005, 07:43 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,107

A lot of players at the .25/.50 NL and PL tables min bet every flop whether they hit or not. It's perceived as a sign of weakness because most of the time it is. I mix it in with my standard, more aggressive style if I flopped the nuts and want to bait someone I know is very aggressive him/herself. And I know it works a lot, because whenever I see min-betting I am tempted to raise big whether I have anything or not.

02-08-2005, 01:11 PM

#14 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,855

I love this play as well. Busted a guy in an SNG the other day...He raised 3 X's BB with AA, I called with TT. Flop was 26T rainbow, giving me trips. I threw out the smallest bet possible, he came over the top with a HUGE bet...and I just slammed him. Man that felt good, beating down aces.

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