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Middle Pairs... TUff Situation!

  
 
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FlowJoe
Old 03-06-2009, 01:36 AM     Post subject: Middle Pairs... TUff Situation! #1 (permalink)  
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Ok. Here's my favorite brain drain situation:
Middle pairs. I'll show through the flop as the pre call is easy!!
What do you think/do??:
FLOW
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($25.67)
CO Eltren44 ($27.66)
BTN piensate ($25.00)
SB Ellagela ($11.39)
BB Shearzy ($25.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, piensate calls $1, 1 fold, Shearzy calls $0.75

Flop:
What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!
 
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ZwiFT
Old 03-06-2009, 01:39 AM #2 (permalink)  
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bet? lol
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bjsaust
Old 03-06-2009, 01:41 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Did you post the right HH?
Just playing to improve.
 
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meeloche
Old 03-06-2009, 01:58 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Pre Call? You raised... you flopped a set.... that means bet....



 
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AnTman_69
Old 03-06-2009, 02:20 AM #5 (permalink)  
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In case u didnt notice..you flopped a set. So its not really a middle pair anymore, or a tough situation. Betting here is the best option. Build a big pot and stack these mofos.
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FlowJoe
Old 03-06-2009, 03:56 AM     Post subject: Middle Pairs...Turn #6 (permalink)  
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OK...Here's the turn
What say u now!!
I'm not showing the action on purpose.
FLOW


$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($25.67)
CO Eltren44 ($27.66)
BTN piensate ($25.00)
SB Ellagela ($11.39)
BB Shearzy ($25.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, piensate calls $1, 1 fold, Shearzy calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10, 3 players)
Shearzy checks, Hero bets $2.50, piensate folds, Shearzy calls $2.50

Turn:
What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!
 
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griffey24
Old 03-06-2009, 04:03 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
 
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ATOTHEC101
Old 03-06-2009, 04:17 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 05:10 AM #9 (permalink)  
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gametight
Old 03-06-2009, 05:20 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
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Genitruc
Old 03-06-2009, 06:34 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 flow i m not saying you re a bad person or a bad poker player or anything, but this is an epic fail and a huge waste of time.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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nutsinho
Old 03-06-2009, 07:49 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 here u go
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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AFchung
Old 03-06-2009, 07:59 AM #13 (permalink)  
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i grind for hours for moments like these

bet.
http://afchung.blogspot.com/
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-06-2009, 08:03 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nutsinho
here u go
heh, did you move this from 'full ring'?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bigspenda73
Old 03-06-2009, 08:26 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 did the flop c/c'er check or bet?

oh wait... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjwdL...eature=related
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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 08:51 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
did the flop c/c'er check or bet?

oh wait...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjwdL...eature=related
God I was hoping it was going to be this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgaOWRfcrMY

And yes.. I have the same look after watching this clip as I do after reading flowjoe's posts in this thread.
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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 08:52 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!
Given villain could possibly have 79, J9 shouldn't we be c/folding this turn now?

Edit: and furthermore, since we figure villain is calling with those hands on the flop and we know that the turn is going to complete those hands, shouldn't we just be c/folding the flop?

Edit2: Please, no-one seriously take any of their time explaining this.
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Muzzard
Old 03-06-2009, 10:16 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 10:19 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzzard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gametight
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
fyq
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gingerwizard
Old 03-06-2009, 10:59 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzzard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gametight
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
fyq
This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 03-06-2009, 01:37 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 this thread can now only be replied with youtube clips:

another contribution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_hz2am90Hk
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RoyalProdigy
Old 03-06-2009, 01:45 PM #22 (permalink)  
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WTF kinda thread is this
Stack That Arab Money!!!
 
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FlowJoe
Old 03-06-2009, 04:49 PM     Post subject: Thanks for the humor ladies and gents!! #23 (permalink)  
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Here's the rest of the hand!! Appreciate the attempts at humor, dulls the pain!!

And to those who asked, I deleted from full and put it in short, someone else moved it to beginner 25nl, which is where it should be!!

Yes BigS...I see what I get!! LOL
Peace,
FLOW

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($25.67)
CO Eltren44 ($27.66)
BTN piensate ($25.00)
SB Ellagela ($11.39)
BB Shearzy ($25.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, piensate calls $1, 1 fold, Shearzy calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10, 3 players)
Shearzy checks, Hero bets $2.50, piensate folds, Shearzy calls $2.50

Turn: ($8.10, 2 players)
Shearzy checks, Hero bets $6, Shearzy raises to $12, Hero raises to $22.17, Shearzy calls $9.85

River: ($52.12, 2 players)

Final Pot: $52.12
Shearzy shows:
Hero shows:

Shearzy wins $49.80 ( won +$24.45 )
Hero wins $0.32 ( lost -$25.35 )
piensate lost -$1
What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!
 
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d0zer
Old 03-06-2009, 04:55 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!
BAM
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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 05:19 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Flow.. you got a set.. so bet.. and then keep on betting.

I'm sorry you lost to 79, J9..but that's how its gotta be!
Given villain could possibly have 79, J9 shouldn't we be c/folding this turn now?

Edit: and furthermore, since we figure villain is calling with those hands on the flop and we know that the turn is going to complete those hands, shouldn't we just be c/folding the flop?

Edit2: Please, no-one seriously take any of their time explaining this.
Dozer... But... Refer to quote!
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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 05:20 PM     Post subject: Re: Thanks for the humor ladies and gents!! #26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by FlowJoe
Here's the rest of the hand!! Appreciate the attempts at humor, dulls the pain!!
teehee. And the even funnier part is, we aren't trying to be humorous. We are trying to tell you how retarded you are if you don't know how to play a set here. But hey... whatever dulls the pain, amirite?
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swiggidy
Old 03-06-2009, 05:21 PM #27 (permalink)  
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 Where you failed is spiking the on the river.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
 
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xpaand
Old 03-06-2009, 05:26 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
did the flop c/c'er check or bet?

oh wait... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjwdL...eature=related
AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I was reading the whole thread sequentially when I got to this. I think that's all I needed to know. LMAO.
OP: Beginner to Master

If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
 
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FlowJoe
Old 03-06-2009, 05:26 PM     Post subject: THAT'S FUNNY!! #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
Where you failed is spiking the on the river.
ok ok!! That's funny!! Shoulda check/fold the turn.
Peace,
FLOW
What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!
 
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givememyleg
Old 03-06-2009, 05:28 PM #30 (permalink)  
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 Flow, you're going through what all beginner's go through. The reason there are so many sarcastic comments is because everyone else here already went through it as well and can look back at these moments and say basically -

Don't focus on big lay downs or fancy moves, just play abc poker. When you flop a set, bet bet bet. When you raise utg with 66, this is your absolute smack daddy premature ejaculation dream of a flop. The only thing on your mind should be getting all the chips in.

You played the hand fine.

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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 05:39 PM #31 (permalink)  
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 yeah fwiw, you played the hand really well. It's just your thought process that is truly whack here. Do you honestly think you need to c/f the turn? Like what would compel you to think that is the best play? And while we are at it, what compels you to question your flop bet?

Advice tip #1: Quit looking at the hand as a whole. Plan your hand, but look at the decision on each street, and each time you get to act as a seperate decision. Everytime it's your chance to act you have the ability to make a +ev, 0ev, or -ev play. Your plays here on all streets were +ev. You won money sir!
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FlowJoe
Old 03-06-2009, 05:39 PM #32 (permalink)  
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Hey Give,
Haven't seen you for a while. I'm cool man. I appreciate the humor..yada yada... really. I do, post mortum wise feel checking the turn, and dealing with the river depending on his bet, would have been more prudent but hindsight...you know!! And I know I will pretty much push the set anyway!!
Thanks for the post,
FLOW
PS You know I have been known to get mine!! While I don't consider myself a beginner, I hope I always stay one!!
What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!
 
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Stacks
Old 03-06-2009, 05:43 PM #33 (permalink)  
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 I really hate to continue ragging you, but seriously you are most definitely a beginner. And have a ways to go before you are not considered a beginner. You are still being very much so results oriented. Hindsight doesn't mean shit in poker.
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FlowJoe
Old 03-06-2009, 06:04 PM #34 (permalink)  
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XXSTACKSXX,
I don't question any move I made except reraising the turn. Hindsight is hand analysis which obviously you feel is useless?? I'm just relooking at my play. Whatever. And unfortunately I lost money SIR. BUT thanks for your thoughts. I'll se ya around.
Peace,
FLOW
What MUST be, most surely SHALL be!!
 
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LawDude
Old 03-06-2009, 06:14 PM #35 (permalink)  
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I agree with what everyone else said about this hand as a matter of ABC poker.

However, as you get better and incorporate more sophisticated reads into your game, you will get to a point where you may be able to discern-- with some players-- what is happening in the hand and how you can narrow their range.

And at that point, the issue of when to lay down a set against a straight can become a live issue.

Not for a beginner in no-limit though.

One other thing to think about-- how much you bet on the flop with this hand may depend in part on whether there is a potential straight or flush draw on the board (as well as your read as to how often your villains are playing with suited cards or connectors). Remember, you want to give your opponent an incorrect price to chase his straight. Even with your $2.50 flop bet, had he had an open ended straight draw, your Villain's implied odds on his woud have been pretty good here. (Of course, he was calling with a gutshot and hit. But you didn't know that.)
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-06-2009, 07:04 PM #36 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlowJoe
XXSTACKSXX,
I don't question any move I made except reraising the turn. Hindsight is hand analysis which obviously you feel is useless?? I'm just relooking at my play. Whatever. And unfortunately I lost money SIR. BUT thanks for your thoughts. I'll se ya around.
Peace,
FLOW
It is pretty much is useless. Poker is about making correct decisions based on imperfect information so we can't go back and replay a hand differently just because we lost. In fact, sometimes we can't do anything about losing a hand period. We made every decision we could correctly as possible, yet still lost (i.e. set/set vs an unknown is 100% unavoidable if you get it all in on the flop). I'm sure everyone here has fell victim to hindsight at one point or another, but as soon as you realize it's completely irrelevant to the decision you're facing your win rate will probably double.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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okiman
Old 03-06-2009, 08:13 PM #37 (permalink)  
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The thought process you are using here is flawed. It's what leads players to be weak-tight. Yes, you might be up against 79, QQ, 1010, 88 or J9. But you also might be up against Q10, AQ, AJ, KK, AA, any flush draw... You need to put your opponents on a range, determine your equity against that range, and see if you should continue. What you are doing here is seeing if your opponent might have you beat, possibly, in worst-case scenario. Your opponent will almost always have at least 1 hand that has you beat. You can't worry about that. Are you seriously only going to reraise on the turn/river with the nuts? You'd be losing a ton of value from your hands if you played that way. You'd also be far too easy to read and exploit as a player.

I'm just a fellow 25nl player without a ton of experience, but you've got some of the best and most respected players on ftr giving you advice. Listen to it.
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LawDude
Old 03-06-2009, 08:27 PM #38 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okiman
The thought process you are using here is flawed. It's what leads players to be weak-tight. Yes, you might be up against 79, QQ, 1010, 88 or J9. But you also might be up against Q10, AQ, AJ, KK, AA, any flush draw... You need to put your opponents on a range, determine your equity against that range, and see if you should continue. What you are doing here is seeing if your opponent might have you beat, possibly, in worst-case scenario. Your opponent will almost always have at least 1 hand that has you beat. You can't worry about that. Are you seriously only going to reraise on the turn/river with the nuts? You'd be losing a ton of value from your hands if you played that way. You'd also be far too easy to read and exploit as a player.

I'm just a fellow 25nl player without a ton of experience, but you've got some of the best and most respected players on ftr giving you advice. Listen to it.
This is correct. You have to work on putting players on a range of plausible hands that they will play, and then make positive expected value plays based on the size of the pot and the likelihood of them having hands within that range that beat you.

Once you have a lot of experience in thinking about players' ranges, THEN you can start thinking about what your reads and the players' actions and tendencies tell you about the specific hands they might have. That's when you can start narrowing that range and figuring out situations where a player actually has you beat and you don't have good odds to draw out. You can't do B, though, until you are very experienced and learned at doing A.
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ArcadianRock
Old 03-06-2009, 09:48 PM #39 (permalink)  
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Don't be so results oriented, if all poker players were like that we'd have quit long ago.

Jesus I get sucked out hundreds of times a week, why's this so different?
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Sir Pawnalot
Old 03-06-2009, 10:40 PM #40 (permalink)  
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This thread pisses me off.

Op wrote: "What do you think/do??:"

FTR wrote:
-"lol"
-"Pre Call? You raised... you flopped a set.... that means bet...."
-"In case u didnt notice..you flopped a set."
-"I really hate to continue ragging you, but seriously you are most definitely a beginner. And have a ways to go before you are not considered a beginner."
- "The thought process you are using here is flawed. It's what leads players to be weak-tight."


Thank God people like Micro and Lawdude is posting. Flowjoe is probably, like me, trying to become the best player there ever was. Your robotic answers will do nothing to improve his game. Just the fact he is reviewing this hand- and thinking about alternate ways of playing it shows that he has more potential than most players i see posting here.

Show respect xxx- just because you have played millions of hands with mediocre winrates does not mean you can berate people like this. Especially not Arcadianrock who just posted about not being able to win.

Thinking through situations where the action is obvious is one of the things that separates winners from future World Champions.

GL FlowJoe
A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
 
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Genitruc
Old 03-07-2009, 03:33 AM #41 (permalink)  
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 getting smacked in the face about stuff that may not seem obvious to you is a crucial part of the learning process
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Genitruc
Old 03-07-2009, 03:35 AM #42 (permalink)  
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 oh shit I just realized this is the BC. For some reason I thought it was SHNL.

I srsly apologize. I would've never pulled the douchebagness had I realized I was posting in this forum.

Seriously. Don't sweat it Flow, glgl.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-07-2009, 03:45 AM #43 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
oh shit I just realized this is the BC. For some reason I thought it was SHNL.

I srsly apologize. I would've never pulled the douchebagness had I realized I was posting in this forum.

Seriously. Don't sweat it Flow, glgl.
Heh, I can't wait till I reach 50nl so I can be verbally assaulted
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

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http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Stacks
Old 03-07-2009, 06:07 AM #44 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot
Your robotic answers will do nothing to improve his game. Just the fact he is reviewing this hand- and thinking about alternate ways of playing it shows that he has more potential than most players i see posting here.
I fail to see where "robotic" answers were used in this thread. The fact that villain posted a pretty obvious hand is not the reason he was being "berated". The reason was because he seemed clueless to the situation, and was being very much so results oriented. I don't mind anyone posting any type of hand history for analysis. Thinking about poker, and reviewing your sessions are a must if you wish to improve.

I was not wrong in telling OP that he is very much a beginner. From his posts in this thread alone, I can easily infer that he does not know much about how things in poker works. He was being results oriented. He was not using a very accurate hand range (if one at all). He did not understand that on average he will win money in this spot against most villains, and that his decisions were +ev. I have no shame in telling his this, and he should have no shame in receiving and accepting the information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot
Show respect xxx- just because you have played millions of hands with mediocre winrates does not mean you can berate people like this. Especially not Arcadianrock who just posted about not being able to win.
While I'm not certain if this is directed at me (because I'm not xxx anything), I will assume so and address it. First I haven't played millions of hands. My lifetime tracked hands does not exceed 400k hands.

I was probably a bit of an asshole in this thread. But you can only take so much of seeing the same threads over and over again. This was the standard "please to not be results oriented anymore" thread.

And please tell me when I berated Arcadianrock. I do not believe I have in any post or thread.
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Sir Pawnalot
Old 03-07-2009, 03:22 PM #45 (permalink)  
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My point was that berating a beginner does nothing but anger the poster. It is not constructive for learning.

It is easy to explain how result orientation leads to bad play without putting people down.

People posting in the BC know they are not excellent players- it is no use concentrating our energies on telling everybody how much they suck.

Encouragement makes the OP build confidence, but honesty is just as important. It is possible to be honest- yet respectful.

The reason I mentioned your name xxstacksxx was not because your replies were robotic nor non-constructive- but because you are highly respected and when you put people down it can have serious effects.

I am sorry I got too carried away- it just reminded me of Sauce123 when he first started posting and people ganged up on him.

Sauce123 finally earned the respect he deserved and I hope that Flowjoe eventually gets his game to a new level where he too can earn some respect. You definitely have the support of the community.

GL
A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
 
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sil693
Old 03-07-2009, 03:39 PM #46 (permalink)  
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sand filled vag ITT
 
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bigspenda73
Old 03-07-2009, 04:10 PM #47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sil693
sand filled vag ITT
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