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spoonitnow
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09-29-2008, 10:31 PM
Post subject: Math Test Poker; Anti-FPS Idea
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Here's a different approach to thinking about poker for you to think on that might help for those who find themselves "mixing it up" without knowing why they're mixing or which spoon to use to mix (pun intended).
If you were taking a math test, and one of the problems is 24 x 13, you know a fairly quickly way to figure out the correct answer, so you answer it and go on to the next problem. Now suppose instead you knew a long and complicated way to figure out the problem that looked fun on paper because it took up more space and looked harder, except you weren't sure if you were getting the right answer or not. Which would you choose?
The first approach to the math problem is relatively simple, relatively easy, and relatively quick, but also has good accuracy -- much like what people consider to be "ABC poker". The second approach to the math problem is more complicated than necessary, harder than necessary, slower and more stressful to work through, and also has a lower accuracy -- much like "mixing it up" when you don't know what you're mixing up or why you're mixing.
Each poker session is a test, and each individual decision is a question. You're given information that can be used on each question if you want it, but you don't always need all of the information available to answer a specific question. When you answer questions right, you make money, and when you answer questions wrong, you lose money.
As an example, there's a lot of information missing in the following scenario that could change your answer, but if you don't know what the information means, you don't know how to use it: Suppose an EP player limps, it's folded to the CO who raises to 5x, and you have Q9s on the button. What is your play? This is like a math problem where you don't have enough information to answer the question.
If the original limper likes to limp/raise a lot, you're more likely to fold. If the original limper likes to limp/fold a lot and CO likes to isolate limpers a lot and doesn't 4-bet bluff much, you're more likely to consider a 3-bet bluff. If you're really deep-stacked and CO pays off hands with his entire stack with any piece of the flop, you'd be more likely to call. But in the absence of any of this information [and the ability to understand what it means in terms of EV] then it's just a fold.
Now obviously the goal is to keep pressing on and learn what different pieces of information mean and so on, but you shouldn't get too far ahead of yourself. If you don't understand pot-odds, then 5-bet bluff shoving over people with A2s is going to be too far over your head because you don't have the necessary foundation. It's just like math class -- you don't learn to do long division before you learn to add.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Sticky
[edit] And also make this mandatory reading for all new players coming to FTR. 
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Sticky
[edit] And also make this mandatory reading for all new players coming to FTR. |
Nah, this is just a random thought that occurred to me.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Sticky
[edit] And also make this mandatory reading for all new players coming to FTR. |
I agree with the sticky part. However, I don't think most newcomers will understand that just yet. It's more like a "I Think I'm good, but having a hard time beating the micro's" manditory read. IMO anyway. Good stuff spoon. as always.
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Sasquach991
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
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Hmmm, let's see. 
24 X 13...
24 =10+10+4 and
13=10+3
By substitution and using the distrbutive property...
(10+10+4) (10 +3) =(10x10) + (10x3) +(10x10) +(10x3) + (4x10) + (4x3) = 100+30+100+30++40+12=200+60+40+12=200+100+12=300+1 2=312
That was pretty easy
I've heard many people say that poker isn't Rocket Science. My problem is that I can do Rocket Science but can't do poker.
I'm just happy that I can watch "Rounders" on TV and finally understand what they are talking about. 
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TonyB73
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 414
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sasquach991
Hmmm, let's see.
24 X 13...
24 =10+10+4 and
13=10+3
By substitution and using the distrbutive property...
(10+10+4) (10 +3) =(10x10) + (10x3) +(10x10) +(10x3) + (4x10) + (4x3) = 100+30+100+30++40+12=200+60+40+12=200+100+12=300+1 2=312
That was pretty easy
I've heard many people say that poker isn't Rocket Science. My problem is that I can do Rocket Science but can't do poker.
I'm just happy that I can watch "Rounders" on TV and finally understand what they are talking about. |
WTF is substitution and the distributive property??
Too long and complicated for me. How about this:
24 x 10 = 240
24 x 3 = 72
240 + 72 = 312
Pretty simple I'd say. Now if I could just learn how to play poker ...
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Tony, his post is obviously a level
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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well, say we have a region R that is 23 by 13. Then we know that the area is equal to the integral over R dA. This can be rearranged to make a double integral with the outer limits from 0 to 23 and the inner limits from 0 to 13. Then the inside (which was 1dA) becomes 1dxdy. Integrating first with respect to x, and evaluating at the limits, we get 13-0=13. Then we are left with the integral from 0 to 23 of 13dy. well, this is just 13y, now evaluated from 0 to 23, we get 13*(23-0) = 13*23...o shit....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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ok. I get what you're getting at spoon.
But when every body tells me to quit being so darn fancy, and play ABC poker. I honestly couldn't tell you what "ABC Poker is" other than "Bet when I'm ahead, and check/fold when I'm behind."
No-ones gone through and said "This is ABC poker to a T," and defined for me what it is.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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we know that 15 * 25 is 15 * 15 + 15 * 10 so it's 375
we have to minus out 15,14, to get 23x15; then we minus out 23,24 to get 23x13
47 + 29 = 50 + 30 - 2 = 76
375 - 76 = 300 - 1 = 299
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
ok. I get what you're getting at spoon.
But when every body tells me to quit being so darn fancy, and play ABC poker. I honestly couldn't tell you what "ABC Poker is" other than "Bet when I'm ahead, and check/fold when I'm behind."
No-ones gone through and said "This is ABC poker to a T," and defined for me what it is.
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You have read Renton's "169 Hand Guides" amirite? That does a rather good job of explaining ABC poker. Also, if you can somehow get your hands on "To Nit or Not to Nit" by DJ Sensei, that would help alot. It's a series of videos (3 I think). It's a DeucesCracked video. It does a great job explaining ABC poker.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I thought this was getting to answering the easy questions first and coming back to the hard ones later and wondered how the hell you were going to relate that to poker.
This made much more sense.
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Just playing to improve.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
well, say we have a region R that is 23 by 13. Then we know that the area is equal to the integral over R dA. This can be rearranged to make a double integral with the outer limits from 0 to 23 and the inner limits from 0 to 13. Then the inside (which was 1dA) becomes 1dxdy. Integrating first with respect to x, and evaluating at the limits, we get 13-0=13. Then we are left with the integral from 0 to 23 of 13dy. well, this is just 13y, now evaluated from 0 to 23, we get 13*(23-0) = 13*23...o shit....
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24*
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
ok. I get what you're getting at spoon.
But when every body tells me to quit being so darn fancy, and play ABC poker. I honestly couldn't tell you what "ABC Poker is" other than "Bet when I'm ahead, and check/fold when I'm behind."
No-ones gone through and said "This is ABC poker to a T," and defined for me what it is.
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It's not so much about playing ABC poker as it is about not doing things if you don't know why you're doing them and if you don't know for sure that they're +EV.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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