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Da GOAT
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02-21-2007, 02:44 PM
Post subject: Marginal hand out of BB vs limper or two. Buyin unrelevant
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Ive thought about my usual line here but im having doubts now.
Scenario;
Hero holds   $50 stack
SB limps with $50 stack
and 1 limper in MP (or 1 more limper in LP) $50 stacks each
all players are quite loose/passive in general. tho not super passive.
Flop $2 pot comes;    (non-descript flop for example)
Action;
SB checks, Hero??????
Presently im actually c/r 1 limper but probably betting out against 2. Im querying my c/r, if i bet into one i may just takwe down the pot but c/r can get a limper to bluff IP (even passive players are capable of betting given 2 blinds check flop).
hmm i may of answered my question here, screw it. ive found sometimes the passive player may call my c/r (pot is still small at around $4-$5). ive found ive had to bed $3.5-$4 again on turn against passives OOP ( i tend to pick up the pot there). if im called on turn i guess i gotta check river.
so instead of betting flop im perhaps risking more c/r flop coz ive got to bet the turn too. maybe im getting greedy wanting to extract the extra bet but in long run it may hurt me. BTW if flop is checked around i bet turn if SB lets me since im prob way ahead (depending on turn card).
Anyone have opinions??
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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How is the pot still $4-5 AFTER you check raise? If the pot is $2 on the flop, and you check, I'd imagine the LP player would bet 1.5-2. Then you would have to check raise to around4-5, so the pot should be about $12 after villain calls?
Why do you check-raise instead of check-calling? If you check-call, villain may fire a second bullet with a worse hand on the turn. I don't think we want to build a big pot, OOP, with such a marginal hand.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
How is the pot still $4-5 AFTER you check raise? If the pot is $2 on the flop, and you check, I'd imagine the LP player would bet 1.5-2. Then you would have to check raise to around4-5, so the pot should be about $12 after villain calls?
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 does it matter?? i made up the hand and estimated the pot so please dont make this a focus point
again sure another line could be check/call?? im open to discussion here.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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StageWhisper
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 90
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I will almost always bet it out, but then again, I usually just bet my hands in the lower stakes I play. The more marginal my holding, the more I like to just take it on the flop to save the guesswork.
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I'm just a girl, you should push.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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ask yourself one question:
what are you trying to achieve here?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
ask yourself one question:
what are you trying to achieve here?
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NOT build the pot OOP!!!
so best bet is to take down the pot NOW. in saying this then check/calling aint that good since we gain no info on opp bar he is agg IP. C/r ing build pot if we meet resistence plus again OOP. therefore simply betting out 1/2-3/4 pot will accomplish both, right? makes sense. if we meet resistense then we know whats happening. if raised we fold. if called proceed with caution i guess.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Sometimes I lead out, sometimes I c/c to catch a few bluffs and prevent from being too predictable. I'll also always lead out if I flop a draw vs 1-2 players.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
How is the pot still $4-5 AFTER you check raise? If the pot is $2 on the flop, and you check, I'd imagine the LP player would bet 1.5-2. Then you would have to check raise to around4-5, so the pot should be about $12 after villain calls?
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does it matter?? i made up the hand and estimated the pot so please dont make this a focus point
again sure another line could be check/call?? im open to discussion here. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
ask yourself one question:
what are you trying to achieve here?
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NOT build the pot OOP!!! |
Well this is EXACTLY why I made the potsize after a check raise (around $12) a focus point.
I don't think we want a pot that big, OOP. I'd say leading out, or check calling is definitely the best play. Check-calling the flop, and leading out a half pot blocking bet on the turn could also be ok.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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You lead and get raised by an aggressive (not necessarily manic) villian, your move?
What if there are 2 diamonds on the flop?
What if it's a min/raise?
I usually lead out, because I might lead a fair amount of blank flops from the blinds as well. I usually toss my hand if I get raised.
EDIT - another question, do you ever raise this out of the BB? Do you want a worse or (slightly) better hand to bluff raise with...
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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If villain is 50NL aggro I c/r, on flops like this I will also occasionally c/r with air.
If villains are passive (i.e. most 50NL) I typically bet flop.
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(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
ask yourself one question:
what are you trying to achieve here?
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NOT build the pot OOP!!!
so best bet is to take down the pot NOW. in saying this then check/calling aint that good since we gain no info on opp bar he is agg IP. C/r ing build pot if we meet resistence plus again OOP. therefore simply betting out 1/2-3/4 pot will accomplish both, right? makes sense. if we meet resistense then we know whats happening. if raised we fold. if called proceed with caution i guess. |
if you bet this flop how many worse hands will call?
if you bet this flop how many better hands will JUST call, and not raise?
How much action do you like on this flop if you get called by a player in position and have to play the turn oop?
if you opponent is behind how many cards is he drawing to?
in general, how is your hand going to play against the ranges of the two limpers and how are you likely to force them into a mistake?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Well this is EXACTLY why I made the potsize after a check raise (around $12) a focus point.
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sry then i thought you were being anal coz pot wud be bigger than my estimated amount.
Exactly OOp with big pot and marginal hands sucks.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
You lead and get raised by an aggressive (not necessarily manic) villian, your move?
i for almost always i say unless i had good read. so id fold. but in most cases id feel i found out im behind, if opp had just called it may be murkier situation
What if there are 2 diamonds on the flop?
id probably lead into 1 limper, c/f vs 2 limpers. i wouldnt c/r since they may take the free cards. so id lead
What if it's a min/raise?
horrible spot but id fold there too. it may be a minbet now but ill have to play turn and river passively OOP.
EDIT - another question, do you ever raise this out of the BB?
preflop??? i dont think it may be a good move at 50NL vs passive players OOP
Do you want a worse or (slightly) better hand to bluff raise with...
if im understanding you, i could c/r flop with K high etc. i dont do it much outside of HU situations in unraised pots
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by "Miffed22001
if you bet this flop how many worse hands will call?
isnt the bet designed to take the pot down now OOP. dont we just wanna end it here?? there arent many worse hands. Qx,9x and maybe certain PPs or gutshots. but its the % that you will take it down that makes leading good, no? sorry to answer with questions but im assuming things here.
if you bet this flop how many better hands will JUST call, and not raise?
vs passive players its also possible they calling with better hands as much as there good hands. tho i thinking about this if opp was aggro it may be suspicious if he just calls here.
How much action do you like on this flop if you get called by a player in position and have to play the turn oop?
id tend to fire again on turn and check river in vacuum if ive been called down.
if you opponent is behind how many cards is he drawing to?
about 5 outs maybe if he just has a pair. 2 if has PP lower than Q
in general, how is your hand going to play against the ranges of the two limpers and how are you likely to force them into a mistake?
hmm interesting, forcing a mistake. c/c makes them make a mistake since they wud have a higher chance to bluff. leading out has a lesser % chance of them making a mistake. c/r is less effective, it gets their bet in but they play correctly from then on.
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wow so many qs from everyone. actually much appriecated since i had to think a good bit about it which is why i kinda left it a day to think a bit.
so from this im thinking just;
bet > c/c > c/r > c/f
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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how about c/c lead turn balanced with the same line with a set oop and/or a hit gutshot if the stacks are deep enough to take a card?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
how about c/c lead turn balanced with the same line with a set oop and/or a hit gutshot if the stacks are deep enough to take a card?
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could work yeah. i cant qs as it seems good. leading strong on turn for 3/4 or 1/2 pot weak/feeler bet?? prob 3/4 lead on turn since we will do that with a set/str8 etc.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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hero check calls something like $2 and leads for $4 and then sets up a bet/3bet all in line OR a river c/r OR open river push into a hand someone isnt folding
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
hero check calls something like $2 and leads for $4 and then sets up a bet/3bet all in line OR a river c/r OR open river push into a hand someone isnt folding
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nice but we do check river here if called on turn with this holding? we couldnt be ahead here often enough to bet river, right?? if we check and he bets river, the chance he is bluffing must be minimal so we can fold comfortably when he does. then we own him when we have a hand 
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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now your getting it. By the time you get to the river you have all options open to you.
I think it works well considering the types of hands youll play from the blinds, two pairs draws etc.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
now your getting it. By the time you get to the river you have all options open to you.
I think it works well considering the types of hands youll play from the blinds, two pairs draws etc.
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thx man appreciate it 
hopefully i can look more at the big picture of my actions more so
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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it was one of the things that helped my game at 50nl/100nl. Think about what your betting pattern/line actually represents instead of what hand you actually have, then just give yourself lots of options on each street to play big pots or fold easily.
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Benoso
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 157
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I like leading here cos I'd do exactly the same with a flopped two-pair, flopped set, flopped OESD and flopped FD.
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