www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

making SC's profitable?

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

Chopper

01-03-2007, 04:33 AM Post subject: making SC's profitable?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

how do you guys play your sc's? do you call raises, limp only, initiate raising to drive out crappy drawing hands?

i am having trouble making these guys profitable, and primarily use them to ward off boredom and for more action on my premiums.

please elaborate with your general strategies...

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

dan

01-03-2007, 08:21 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 288

I use to 3bet them in and out of position, i have changed that though, i never 3bet SC's anymore, i call with them in position, unless the pfr is a solid player with a big pfr range coz that kills my implied odds...i love calling pfr's with SC's when the guy has stats of like 30/8 or lower, i feel like my implied odds are pretty big with players like this, plus they are pretty easy to float as well if i miss.

Also, i raise 65s+ from from like UTG1 sometimes UTG, and 54s in CO and sometimes UTG1, i play 6max.

http://www.takinstax.blogspot.com

pokerroomace

01-03-2007, 02:11 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan

you 3 bet SCs? lol. that's aggressive. was it profitable?
if someone is raising pf after you've already made a raise they have to have quite a strong range. isn't it a bit risky 3 betting?
if you bet 4xbb. villain raises to 12xbb. if you're going to 3 bet you'll be raising to 36xbb. at this point you are basically commited to the pot if he continues to play on. you'll both have over 1/3 of your stacks in the pot. (assuming both full stacked with 100xbb).

this is a bit too aggressive isn't it?

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

benny999

01-03-2007, 03:25 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

pokerroomace, "3bet" is actually the raise after a pfr, like the 12bb bet after a 4bb pfr...even though I agree it makes more sense to just call it a 2bet

chopper, imo it's hard to say how to make SC profitable without talking about other typical poker stuff like stack sizes/reads etc (obvious answer is "it depends.."), but I'll post an example I think I played a SC well, and explain my thoughts (nothing complex really, but if anyone thinks I could've played better let me know)..

Hand #38092569-4887 at Lewisville (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 03/Jan/07 10:10:54

TrippelA111 is at seat 0 with $100.90.
MRG825 is at seat 1 with $100.60.
FrolicinBear is at seat 2 with $116.
Threapwood is at seat 3 with $88.10.
deedubs is at seat 4 with $59.10.
Hero is at seat 5 with $153.15.
The button is at seat 5.

TrippelA111 posts the small blind of $.50.
MRG825 posts the big blind of $1.

TrippelA111: -- --
MRG825: -- --
FrolicinBear: -- --
Threapwood: -- --
deedubs: -- --
Hero:

:Tc:

Pre-flop:

FrolicinBear raises to $3.50. Threapwood folds.
deedubs folds. Hero calls. TrippelA111 folds.
MRG825 calls.

alright so we both have decent size stacks, I'm on the button, and I have good reads, basically an ideal spot.
villain is a tag with a wide range to raise pre flop, and cbets almost every time, but has a very tight range to continue oop in a big pot. I have a solid tag image too so he's likely to respect me post flop.

I sometimes would just reraise, especially if we had deeper stacks, but this time called to attempt to take the pot on the flop or turn a lot of the time, and some of the time winning a huge pot if we both hit big.
sometimes I'll lose a smallish pot but believe I have a big edge in the long-run with position on a predicable opponent.

Flop (board: 3h 6c Ac):

MRG825 checks. FrolicinBear bets $7. Hero
raises to $21. MRG825 folds. FrolicinBear folds.
Hero is returned $14 (uncalled).

so as planned he bet with whatever he raised pre with (maybe 15% of hands), and I made a threatening raise and he folds almost everything but TPGK on this flop. my draw is a just a bonus in case he calls. if it was a dry board I might've floated his cbet instead.

Hand #38092569-4887 Summary:

$1.25 is raked from a pot of $25.
Hero wins $23.75.
----------------------------------------------------------------

biondino

01-03-2007, 03:33 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

I got such a mouthful from the villain for this hand. Would anyone have played it differently? Should I have folded in the BB after a raiser and a caller?

Game #2953882963: Hold'em NL (£0.15/£0.25) - 2007/01/01 - 17:02:08 (DST)
Table "Arcturus" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: MangaGav (£8 in chips)
Seat 2: Jdhogg (£11.05 in chips)
Seat 3: Aradax22 (£41.35 in chips)
Seat 4: Sterob001 (£20 in chips)
Seat 5: 2hi4me2cu (£26.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Zerbombt (£27.50 in chips)
2hi4me2cu: posts small blind £0.15
Zerbombt: posts big blind £0.25
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Zerbombt [6s 5s]
MangaGav: folds
Jdhogg: folds
Aradax22: raises to £1.25
Sterob001: calls £1.25
2hi4me2cu: folds
Zerbombt: calls £1
----- FLOP ----- [5d 6c 3s]
Zerbombt: checks
Aradax22: bets £3.50
Sterob001: folds
Zerbombt: raises to £9.50
Aradax22: raises to £40.10 and is all-in
Zerbombt: is all-in £16.75
Returned uncalled bets £13.85 to Aradax22
----- TURN ----- [5d 6c 3s][Td]
----- RIVER ----- [5d 6c 3s Td][2d]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Aradax22: shows [Ah As] (A Pair of Aces, Ten high)
Zerbombt: shows [6s 5s] (Two Pairs, Sixes and Fives, Ten high)
Zerbombt collected £53.60 from Main pot

ihategnomes

01-03-2007, 03:58 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: Louisiana

Posts: 1,225

Dont forget one of the single biggest factors. Stack size. Implied odds generally wont be there in a lot of MTT situations.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

Chopper

01-03-2007, 05:39 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

benny,

did you raise him on the flop w/ your draw to "see if he would fold?" werent you worried he had the A after his pf raise? and if he called you, what would you do then if the turn missed?

i dont understand, i guess, the playing a HU pot w/ a sc. you NEVER get the correct odds to draw profitably (in NL), and implied odds are very tough to figure when a Tag wont pay off the flush when it hits. you obviously know more than me, but it seems you got a bit lucky that he didnt have the A. i think you lose this hand the majority of the time, and when you call a raise and raise again, as a semi-bluff, on the flop, if you dont win the pot right there, you really spewed some chips, imo. but maybe thats why i dont play them profitably. i dont mean to be critical, when i asked for advice, but please elaborate on WHY you would think MY response is wrong. thanks.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

01-03-2007, 05:47 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

biondino,

what would you have done with villain's push if you had more than 16 pounds? say, if you had HIM covered with 45 pounds?

i guess in a 6max game you have to "go to stacks" when you flop 2 pair against a pfraise? but again, calling a pf raise in a HU situation cannot make these profitable in the long run, can it? you just dont hit 2 pair that often on the flop, or complete that big draw against AA...when AA is pushing and shoving to bet you out, do you? seems that (in NL again) you are forced to "chase" your sc's too much to make them a profitable holding.

any theories on why you SHOULD chase with a sc in a 2-3 way pot while facing psb's?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Warpe

01-03-2007, 05:50 PM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

Playing what's generally a drawing hand OOP sucks but the preflop call is fine, esp. with the extra caller. I'd fold if it was reraised though.

zook

01-03-2007, 05:52 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

I generally raise 87s+ from MP2 and later, bet my draws and usually c-bet heads-up flops (depending on board and opp). But SCs are losers for me the last 10K hands, so I'm starting to scale back the pre-flop aggression, esp in EP and MP.

Chopper

01-03-2007, 06:54 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

this is how i "typically" play them. but, i figure this hand plays itself.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($32.50)
SB ($26.50)
Hero ($17.60)
UTG ($24.25)
MP1 ($25)
MP2 ($37.10)
CO ($7.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

, 6

.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.85) 4

, 8

, 3

(3 players)
Hero bets $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3.10) 2

(3 players)
Hero bets $1, MP1 raises to $2.5, CO folds, Hero raises to $7, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: $12.60

its hard for me to smooth call the turn raise here with the flush draw out there. any two overcards that are suited are likely to bet this turn. and a cardinal rule of mine at 25 NL is to bet when i hit, and RARELY slow play. when i slowplay, it seems i get sucked out on and only have myself to blame.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

pokerroomace

01-03-2007, 06:59 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

isn't the pf call with 65s OOP slightly loose blondihno?
i like the way the rest of the hand went. it is very unlikely that he has you beat there.

what is "floating" exactly? is it just calling and waiting to bet later?

i like the reraise with the flush draw on bennys hand. but playing flush draws aggressively at lower stakes just doesn't seem to work. i think you are much better playing flush draws passively at lower stakes. i don't bet my flush draws aggressively that often but the last few times i have done (and i have had 9-15 outs) i'm getting called by TP or a weak overpair. and i never seem to hit my flushes when they call and i end up stacking off. i don't do it that much though so i've just had some bad variance.

thanks for clearing up what a 3bet is. i've thought for a long time that it was a 4bet.

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

pokerroomace

01-03-2007, 07:04 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

its hard for me to smooth call the turn raise here with the flush draw out there. any two overcards that are suited are likely to bet this turn. and a cardinal rule of mine at 25 NL is to bet when i hit, and RARELY slow play. when i slowplay, it seems i get sucked out on and only have myself to blame.

i agree with this. and i would play it just like you. maybe it's playing a bit too scared. but you want to get more money into the pot anyway so i think it's a good play. especially with the huge no. of fish at the 25NL tables.

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

zenbitz

01-03-2007, 07:17 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

I *think*, and this is really just a guess - that SCs are hard to play at small (50-100) stakes because you don't really have the deception value you think you do against a typical player. There are lots of loose players who don't even care what you have, and there are lots of paranoid weak/tight players who are going to fold when the 3rd suited card hits anyway.

Also, low SCs like 45s and 67s *should* be considerably less profitable than QJs and T9s because:
1) fewer nut straights, lower flushies
2) better 1-pair, 2-pair hands occasionally

I wonder if we should fold more lower SCs unless we think we have particularly high implied odds (excellent position, villian raised with very low PFR, high aggro, in addition to necessary stack)

benny999

01-03-2007, 07:57 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

Quote:

benny,

did you raise him on the flop w/ your draw to "see if he would fold?" werent you worried he had the A after his pf raise? and if he called you, what would you do then if the turn missed?

that's not exactly how I looked at it...I was comparing what his range would be to call my flop raise vs what range he was betting.

the read I posted was pretty fundamental to making that play. vs a more passive, unpredictable, or loose opponent it probably would be a bad move. I'll try to show some math behind it though...

lets say his range was: 22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,A9o+,KJo+
when I raise, I think he won't continue without at least AJ+ and sets, sometimes better draws. His range just shrank from 15% to 4 or 5%.

the numbers don't need to be exact, but the point is as long he will fold about 1/2 of the time then raising was +ev, and looking at all the hands he raises other than AJ+, it looks very +ev, especially if it gets me action later on.

oh ya, if he called I am probably shutting down without making my hand, but I might get a free card with the button..

swiggidy

01-03-2007, 08:16 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is how i "typically" play them. but, i figure this hand plays itself.

Tank then bet more on the turn, $3, who cares if he folds you need to build the pot.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Chopper

01-03-2007, 08:54 PM

#17 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

this is how i "typically" play them. but, i figure this hand plays itself.

Tank then bet more on the turn, $3, who cares if he folds you need to build the pot.

i didnt think, initially, that a psb on the turn would get any action since the board was so low and rainbowed given the pf action (what i should have thought was i had 3 callers to a flop bet, a psb should string one along). i figured with a 1/3 bet i was begging A8o, 67, etc to call one more smallish bet. once i saw interest, however, i figured he may have a set, or maybe A5. i figure those hands cant release, but the flush draw like 8c9c or Ac4c has a redraw on me...so i figured it better to end it right there and not give the chance to suckout, as well as thinking that if he doesnt fold my RR, we are getting it all in right here...which is what i wanted to happen before the club falls on the river.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

01-03-2007, 08:56 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

Quote:

benny,

did you raise him on the flop w/ your draw to "see if he would fold?" werent you worried he had the A after his pf raise? and if he called you, what would you do then if the turn missed?

this is the kind of math i need to "learn" how to compute. any articles, links, etc you would recommend?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

swiggidy

01-03-2007, 09:42 PM

#19 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

I don't waste much time putting people on hands at 25NL. The important thing is that you have the NUTZ YO it doesn't matter what they have it's worse than yours. Having a $3 bet called twice is better than a $1 bet being called 5 times. A8, 34 is coming along for the ride regardless. T8 may think and call it's hard to say sometimes.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Chopper

01-03-2007, 09:58 PM

#20 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

so, go to the old rule of: When it comes to micros, rarely, if ever bluff, and play your cards...not the player.

where/what level do you start to focus on reads?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

zook

01-03-2007, 10:25 PM

#21 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

I don't waste much time putting people on hands at 25NL.

I disagree with swig here. I don't think there's any stake too low that you shouldn't be practicing hand-reading. The fact that low-stakes players are bad and their "standard" plays vary widely doesn't mean that they're unpredictable. In fact, I think low stakes players are often more consistent (and therefore predictable, once you have a read) than higher-stakes players. My advice at these stakes is don't put too much stock in a read that isn't from experience with that particular player and almost never make big laydowns.

I do agree with swig's overall points though: a read isn't very important in this hand, and betting big hands hard is hugely +EV in the long run.

flyingPenguin

01-03-2007, 10:33 PM

#22 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2006

Location: Sydney

Posts: 193

I always fold SCs from EP, and most often from MP unless the players acting after are passive. With drawing hands you have much worse implied odds OOP. For this reason I will almost never call a raise OOP.

If I decide to play my SCs and there is no raise before me I will raise them. Unless there are about 3 or more limpers, in which case I might also limp.

I will almost always call a preflop minraise by a full stack from any position.

I will usually only call a proper preflop raise if I have position and another caller.

Postflop, I will often bet or raise strong draws from position. That's how I play other strong hands which are vulnerable to draws, like sets, so it disguises my hand a little to help the implied odds and possibly wins it there. It also will probably give a free card on the turn against some good hands and players looking to check/raise. If I'm given the free card I'll usually take it.

swiggidy

01-03-2007, 10:35 PM

#23 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Reads are important in the sense: weak/tight, solid/agro, calling station. Or: min-raises solid hands, loves to bluff river, donk bets turn when 2 pair hits, etc.

I only use specific hands, or a tight range when I look at what beats me and how likely it is they hold those cards vs how vulnerable my hand is. Say "I have AQ and I'm only afraid of AK or a draw" so if he's tight I'll be more cautious. If he's a donk I ignore AK and play like I have the nuts. Sometimes I'm wrong, but more often I'm not.

I've only been successful up to 50NL so take that FWIW.

{EDIT: zook posted while I was writing. My first post was dissing hand reading which wasn't the intent. I just meant it's so hard to narrow bad players ranges that thinking "hmm, he has A8 so he'll call $2 but not $3" isn't worth the energy. Bad players ranges are so wide that any respectable hand I generally assume is good, then try to decide if stacking off or a moderately priced showdown is best, and adjust my play off of that

I do think in terms of "that's how he plays TP", or "this looks like he's scared" so maybe I am just doing my hand reading sideways}

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

zenbitz

01-03-2007, 10:47 PM

#24 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

Chopper - I don't like your bet 1/3rd pot then raise on turn in your hand. If you are going to bet small and fish for a raise, just call it, and hope he puts more money in on the river. If another club hits, well, try to not get a/i. If you want to b3b it, bet a real amount, or even an overbet. Unless you bluff raise like this as well...

I don't think slowplaying here is a huge mistake... the pot is kind of small and he probably doesn't have anything... you risk the b/d flush, but again, the pot isn't so big you can't fold, and he might catch 2pair/trips/idiot end on the river.

pokerroomace

01-03-2007, 11:27 PM

#25 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

so, go to the old rule of: When it comes to micros, rarely, if ever bluff, and play your cards...not the player.

where/what level do you start to focus on reads?

i think that there is a place for bluffing at $25NL.
especially cbetting.

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

Chopper

01-04-2007, 12:33 AM

#26 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i gotta thank you guys for what has turned into the "give chopper free advice" post. this HAS helped a lot, as i have seen most of you guys posting in here before and respect your opinions.

i think i may be, in part, starting to "turn a corner" of sorts in my play. lately, i have been getting much more aggressive, and while overall i have not been profitable over my last 14 k hands (i'm down like 4 BB/100), before that i have had a ton of success (up 5 BB's/ 100 over 40k hands at 25 and 50 and a little 100).

part of the "new" aggression is arrogance, part is trying to adjust to the fact that the "fish" seem smarter these days...since about summer (before, but worse, since US ban). they seem a little tighter pre-flop and less likely to stick it in w/o moderately solid holdings (you dont seem to double up as frequently w/ TPTK anymore). and part of the aggro influence was about 8k hands at 6max...WOW, did i get some bad habits there.

but anyway, i want to say one more thing...

lots of us seem to hit a "bad run" and blame variance frequently. lately, i've seen more of us say ..."with a little bad play"... but the fact remains, i have made some HORRID plays recently, like this one.

its off the subject of sc's, but since i have you guys' attention please let me know if this is as bad as i think it was upon review. boy did i get greedy. i just want you guys to tell me if there was ANY justification for this, as i know i was taking a HUGE gamble here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($25)
MP3 ($44.60)
CO ($15.45)
Hero ($19.40)
SB ($13.20)
BB ($37.95)
UTG ($7.25)
UTG+1 ($48.05)
MP1 ($26.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8

, 8

. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. MP3 posts a blind of $0.35.
3 folds, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) 8

, 6

, 4

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($1.35) 9

(5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $1, SB folds.

River: ($3.35) Q

(2 players)
BB bets $3, Hero raises to $8, BB raises to $36.7, Hero calls $10.15 (All-In).

Final Pot: $58.20

this is the type of stuff i used to call variance because when i run well, it holds up. but when i run NORMAL, i get killed here with this stuff, and should not make this mistake again.

was it ok to check the flop, and wait to hammer the turn? or should i have just bet the flop from the start?

thanks

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Warpe

01-04-2007, 12:41 AM

#27 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Canuckistan

Posts: 3,905

Easy raise preflop. Bet the flop b/c it's draw heavy.

swiggidy

01-04-2007, 01:23 AM

#28 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Raise pre-flop because there is 5BB in the pot already with no-one who's displayed and affection for their hand. If that was 2 limpers, limping 88 from LP is ok.

OMG, bet the flop. How are you going to get someone's stack if the pot is only $1. You want stacks!!! People will not fold a flush draw to a PSB that is 3-4bb. Fire away. From your position they may interpret it as a steal attempt.

Bet like someone has a hand, if everyone folds so be it.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Chopper

01-04-2007, 02:07 AM

#29 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

honestly, this was me getting VERY greedy. i have tendencies towards FPS (fancy play syndrome), as do we all, just not THIS bad, i imagine.

one of the hardest things for me to do is push my strong hands when i cant get no...

AA and KK stole the blinds for me today, twice for KK. and i hit 2 sets. the first one was a little like this one, but didnt pay because i bet out like i normally do. however, on this one i snapped out of frustration, and decided to slow play...for some weird reason.

and it turned a modest winning day into a slightly losing day...in ONE flippin' hand. and this is one of the rare times i felt "tilted." so, at least i did the right thing from there and LEFT THE TABLE.

i didnt expect any sympathy, as this hand deserves none, but thanks for the kind remarks.

one question. why raise 88 pf on a full ring game? i thought you limp, "set hunt" and punish the flop when the set comes in (i know i didnt do that here). with 2 limpers, technically, i read you should fold, although i cannot see how.

but, how much to raise? 3X, 4X or 4X + limpers? if you raise to $1.50, doesnt it cost more (long term) when you miss, as some of the time you are only limping or calling smaller raises?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

zook

01-04-2007, 03:25 AM

#30 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

one question. why raise 88 pf on a full ring game? i thought you limp, "set hunt" and punish the flop when the set comes in (i know i didnt do that here). with 2 limpers, technically, i read you should fold, although i cannot see how.

Raise because you're in position and it gives you more than a 1 in ~9 chance to win money on the hand. Bad players will call your raise and won't hit the flop, and you'll take a decent pot down with a c-bet. Plus if you do hit your set, the pot is already built a little, making it easier to play for stacks. I'm sure there are more good reasons...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, how much to raise? 3X, 4X or 4X + limpers? if you raise to $1.50, doesnt it cost more (long term) when you miss, as some of the time you are only limping or calling smaller raises?

However much you normally raise. "Standard" is 4xbb+1bb/limper, so to $3 in this case.

Chopper

01-04-2007, 04:51 AM

#31 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

makes sense, but sometimes it is unwise to cbet, right? and the more callers to your raise, the more unwise it is to cbet, right? for example, a lone A hits a rainbow flop...cbet. however, what if the flop comes Ah Th 4c, do you still cbet an opponent you have no reads on?

what are your criteria?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

swiggidy

01-04-2007, 05:06 AM

#32 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Now it's time to play pokah!!!

The point is you have a chance to win the pot by raising pre-flop, with a good hand mind you. You get 1, maybe 2 calles, now you have a chance to win by cbetting the flop. How often you cbet depends on the flop, and the players, this would be a long post in itself. The point is, before you see the turn card you have 2 chances to win the pot. If you limp you'll only win when you hit your set or the flop is all rags.

chance to win irregardless of the cards >> chance to win because you have the best hand

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Jager

01-04-2007, 07:00 AM

#33 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 754

I usually play my SC's like this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($132.05)
Hero ($193.80)
UTG ($369.35)
MP ($116.50)
Button ($105.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

, 6

.
UTG raises to $4, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) 9

, Q

, A

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $9, Hero raises to $27, UTG calls $18.

Turn: ($62.50) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $45, UTG calls $45.

River: ($152.50) T

(2 players)
Hero bets $117.8 (All-In), UTG calls $117.80.

Final Pot: $388.10

Results in white below:
Hero has 5c 6c (flush, ace high).
UTG has Ah Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $388.10.

"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."

Chopper

01-04-2007, 01:52 PM

#34 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

jager,

that looked like a fun hand, and i dont know many that can get away from 2 pair, especially top two. but i WOULD slow down when you c/r, then have to think about folding when you keep pushing hard into a three-club flop. i dont know w/o playing with you to have any read/image to go by, you may have had me, too.

swigg,

i dont mean to sound like a complete noob, as i have decent experience w/ cbetting, etc. but, sometimes we need some reassurance that we are not "growing stupider...duh" by playing with the donks that tend to give us bad habits. it's like staying sober around a bunch of drunks...you need to stop and look at yourself "from the outside" every so often to make sure you arent becoming "one of them."

my challenge is that i keep falling back into my "comfort zone"...of being a BIG FRIGGIN' NIT!!

thanks again for the help.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

biondino

01-04-2007, 02:59 PM

#35 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

Also, low SCs like 45s and 67s *should* be considerably less profitable than QJs and T9s because:
...
2) better 1-pair, 2-pair hands occasionally

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live, and I will often bet any pair I make on a low flop against a pre-flop raiser. with QJ or similar, you're much more likely to be dominated but you have a "better" hand in an absolute sense, which makes it harder to get away from.

uscheese

01-04-2007, 03:23 PM

#36 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2006

Posts: 558

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Ash256

01-04-2007, 03:44 PM

#37 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: UK

Posts: 1,760

Quote:

Originally Posted by uscheese

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Listen to my music

uscheese

01-04-2007, 03:59 PM

#38 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2006

Posts: 558

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

Originally Posted by uscheese

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Meaning that the lower cards are more likely to have the other cards to complete a str8 (or pairs) still in the deck?

pokerroomace

01-04-2007, 04:48 PM

#39 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

Quote:

Originally Posted by uscheese

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

Originally Posted by uscheese

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Meaning that the lower cards are more likely to have the other cards to complete a str8 (or pairs) still in the deck?

no. it means that when you hit TP on the flop with 56 it is unlikely that someone has top pair with a better kicker. if you flop top pair with QJ it is more likely that he has TP with a better kicker (than in the hand where you had 56). he is more likely to have seen the flop with a jack in his hand than a 5 in his hand. if he had a 5 in his hand he probably would have folded it preflop.

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

uscheese

01-04-2007, 04:50 PM

#40 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2006

Posts: 558

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

Quote:

Originally Posted by uscheese

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

Originally Posted by uscheese

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

Bear in mind, though, lower cards are more likely live

Can you explain why this is?

Thanks

Players are more likely to hold KQ rather than K5, or JT rather than J6.

Meaning that the lower cards are more likely to have the other cards to complete a str8 (or pairs) still in the deck?

Ahhh I see....thanks

pokerroomace

01-04-2007, 04:57 PM

#41 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($25)
MP3 ($44.60)
CO ($15.45)
Hero ($19.40)
SB ($13.20)
BB ($37.95)
UTG ($7.25)
UTG+1 ($48.05)
MP1 ($26.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8

, 8

. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. MP3 posts a blind of $0.35.
3 folds, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.35) 8

, 6

, 4

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($1.35) 9

(5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $1, SB folds.

River: ($3.35) Q

bet preflop to $1.5 (4xbb+1xbb per limper). you have a good chance to take the pot now. and you have a good chance to take the pot on the flop if you do get 1 or 2 limpers since you are in position. if you get 2 callers and the flop comes AKQs it probably isn't a good idea to cbet if hits checked to you. (maybe you could try a 1/3 pot bet - but that might be a bit loose)
you should bet between 2/3 pot to pot on the flop. very bad play by checking.
you should make a raise on the turn. approximately pot-sized. i think getting all your chips in on the river is fine. but you really did mess up the hand.

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

mixchange

01-04-2007, 06:45 PM

#42 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

I disagree about raising preflop with middle pairs. Yes, you are ahead. But your set gets the most value when it hits in a multiway pot, especially if you hit the rare but stackable full house you will want someone else to have trips. By isolating people you have a lower chance someone wants to play with you when your set does hit. I want to play pairs for stacks to hit sets and so I agree with your raise on the flop, but I have made a lot more money lately calling with pairs to get into multi way pots to get paid.

one problem with lower connectors also is that you have a higher chance of losing to higher flushes and straights. Don't play for stacks with the "idiot end" of a straight or with a low flush unless your read is pristine. Also, beware of re-raising high bets on the river with an idiot end or low flush, as often the only caller has you beat.

zook

01-04-2007, 07:11 PM

#43 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

FWIW, in the hand history Chopper posted, I'd even raise 22. I open-raise all pp's from all positions and raise lower pp's after limpers from LP. Stats on TT-22 from 12k hands at 100NL full-ring:

Obv I won multiple stacks with TT and 66 and lost a couple with 77. Lost a bunch of c-bets with 55 for some reason. Small sample I know, but maybe food for thought...

mixchange

01-04-2007, 09:27 PM

#44 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

whatever its worth, 50NL, I'm assuming you are posting 100NL?

zook

01-04-2007, 10:13 PM

#45 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

LOL. I take it back, you're doing pretty well just limping/calling with them too

Why'd you leave out 33?

bbqsquirrel

01-04-2007, 10:23 PM

#46 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Vancouver, Canada

Posts: 260

Raise SCs and flop trips. No one will believe you.

BBQSquirrel's poker blog

100NL adventures -- both FR and 6max

http://bbqsquirrel.blogspot.com

mixchange

01-04-2007, 10:26 PM

#47 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

no reason, I must just not know how to use Poker Tracker well yet, couldnt get the window to max...I prolly sound like a newb.

you dont want to see my Ax stats or sc stats...teach me please! any good links or rules for that?

pokerroomace

01-04-2007, 11:42 PM

#48 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

maybe the reason u do well with pockets is because of your loose image from other hands like SCs and Ax.
do Ax or Axs? Ax shouldn't really be a winner. only AT+ are decent/good. i dont know stats tho so dont shout at me n show me sum1 making a good profit with A2o.

zook. you raise pocket pairs a lot.
zook and mixchange - you both see a very high number of flops with pocket pairs.
im surprised at these high stats.
i actually fold low pockets in early position. utg i think ill fold 66-22. and ill only start playing all of them in midposition.
ill raise pockets when in mid to late position if there have been no raises. 77 and 88 i might raise in early position and 99+ i will always raise in ep.
i play 25NL.

how do the top players at this site play PP at FR?
do they agree in general on an optimum way of playing them? (obv. poker is situational - but in general. there arent that many situations that can occur pf tho)

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

pokerroomace

01-04-2007, 11:43 PM

#49 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 783

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

coz ur down 300BB/100 hands with 33!

http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
18 years old. short-handed $600NL.

swiggidy

01-05-2007, 12:00 AM

#50 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Waiting in the shadows ...

Posts: 3,777

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

i actually fold low pockets in early position. utg i think ill fold 66-22. and ill only start playing all of them in midposition.

This is terrible. If you want to open limp in EP at lower limits fine, but don't fold. Your hand has so much potential.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Page 1 of 3

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:55 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Beginners Circle

making SC's profitable?

Play for FREE and practice your game at...