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Lukie's list of profitable hands

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Lukie

05-10-2006, 02:23 AM Post subject: Lukie's list of profitable hands

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

*MY profitable hands, in my current 134k hand database. The vast majority of hands are at .5/1NL, 1/2NL, and 2/4NL. Ordered in terms of BB/hand.

AA
KK
QQ
JJ

AKo
44
AQs
TT

AJs
AKs
T9s
33
22
55
99
AQo
KQs
66 (it's actually lost me money while making .21bb/hand - over different stakes though)
KJs
K2s (3% vpip)
A6s
T7s
ATs
A2s
88
ATo
98s

Below make less then .1bb/hand

AJo
J9s
A7s
QTs
Q7s
K9s
A9s
A3s
J7s
KQo
K6s
Q9s
KTs
K3s
83s
76o
QJs

-----

77 loves to be an underset and is red across the board.

When I alphabetize my hands in pokertracker (where it gives you your stats on all your hands, starting with AA, AKs, AKo, AQs, etc., I DON'T HAVE A SINGLE UNPAIRED HAND WITHOUT A TEN OR HIGHER THAT IS SHOWING PROFIT. THEY ARE ALL LOSING MONEY. THIS INCLUDES ALL SUITED CONNECTORS FROM 23s-89s.

I'm sure most of you won't find this interesting. I did though.

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Renton

05-10-2006, 02:39 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

I think the value of suited connectors (in full ring) is through deception only.

mcatdog

05-10-2006, 02:40 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

Basically, my stats tell the same story as yours. The suited connectors from 98s on down are my biggest losers, and I'm making a profit on almost all of my unpaired high card hands.

Someone needs to drag up your "myths" thread and add this one:

Myth: It's better to raise with a "deceptive" hand like 65s than with "easily dominated" high cards like AT or KJ.

I think the reasoning is pretty simple. Let's say you raise preflop and get one caller from the blinds. You miss the flop completely, but you make a c-bet that gets called. If you have high cards, you often still have 6 outs. If you have a small suited connector, you're very likely to be drawing dead. That's a huge difference in pot equity, especially if your opponent checks the turn to you and gives you a free river. This scenario happens all the time.

The suited connectors will win you a huge pot more often than the KJ type hands will, but huge pots don't happen all that often in NLHE. The majority of your profit comes from hands like the ones I described above.

finky

05-10-2006, 11:12 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: London

Posts: 270

Different strokes etc.

According to PT (34k hands) If I only played suited connectors, I'd be making 43PTBB/100. AKs is only at 0.26PTBB/hand, 34s, 78s and 89s are all bigger winners.

I mainly play 6-max and raise them ~40%of the time.

jackvance

05-10-2006, 11:19 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

You're not really talking big picture here. Playing a vast range of hand makes sure your big ones get paid off better. I mean, if you keep stealing pots or losing them with suited crap, and then someone gets sick of it and decides to play back at your AA/KK, then the AA/KK shows the profit but the suited crap had a part in it too, in the whole.

I also like the point Finky makes here. Your playstyle will also affect which hands pay off and such. I could possibly even devise a strategy to make AA a loser.. fold to raises, limp in big pots and then check/call it down to the river every time. Ofcourse this is stupid, but it's to emphasize that your playstyle can have a great affect on your pay-off per hand, even over large sample sizes..

Cocco_Bill

05-10-2006, 12:17 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Sweden

Posts: 1,254

Full ring?

My profitable hands from 155k database: (BB/hand)

AA
KK
QQ
TT
JJ
AKs
AKo
KQs
88
AQs
99
33
QTs
AJs
55
77
AQo
22
A9s
QJs
TJs
66
A5s
97s
44
A8s
A3s
ATs
KQo
J9s
A7s
K9s
KJs
QJo
QTo
T9s
K6s
K4s
94s
53s
K7s
ATo
Q9s
J6s
A9o
65o
KTs
AJo

rest are losing

Biggest loser 86s at -0.2bb/hand

no hand I play is losing big

67s and 87s are slight losers. I usually raise these when i play them. It helps my table image so I'll keep playing them like this.

saywhat2

05-10-2006, 05:19 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I think the value of suited connectors (in full ring) is through deception only.

I don't agree. Suited connectors and suited gaps. Are some of my biggest winners. I was very surprised to see how far down the list he had JQs. Maybe your not getting rid of the hand quick enough when you don't hit the flop hard.?

mcatdog

05-10-2006, 05:31 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

By the way QJs and JTs are huge winners for me. It's the hands from 98s on down that I think are overrated.

Quote:

I think that's just an excuse people come up with to play shitty cards. I'm all for loosening up to get my big hands paid off, but the hands I'm going to add to my range are going to be ones with more value than these suited crap hands.

fasin8ing

05-10-2006, 05:42 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Germany

Posts: 1,063

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhat2

I don't agree. Suited connectors and suited gaps. Are some of my biggest winners.

out of how many hands played?

saywhat2

05-10-2006, 06:17 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 113

I am not saying that they do better than AA,KK,QQ ect... But far better than what is being spoken here. I have 108,000 hands of NL in my poker tracker. And if you think 89s is a crap hand in a NL cash game. Than you are not playing the hand correctly. I am not saying play it from UTG, but there are spots where it is the perfect hand to play and take down a big pot. But thats just my opinion.

saywhat2

05-10-2006, 06:26 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 113

Furthermore, I much prefer to play 78s against a raise than I do QJs or KQs. And I will tell you why. Say I call a raise of 5 times the BB with QJs. And the flop comes down QQ2. There is a good chance I am toast. My opponent may have AQ. Leaving me in a very tough spot. However same senario, I play 78s and flop comes 772 well now I am almost certain I have the best hand against the raiser.

underminedsk

05-11-2006, 05:54 AM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Reraising you from the button

Posts: 250

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

I think the value of suited connectors (in full ring) is through deception only.

I disagree. My SCs 4-J are all medium winners for me. ( around .75bb/ hand)

I raise them from almost every position to 5xbb preflop, but rarely call a raise with them, unless im getting 1:30 or better implied odds.

online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max

Miffed22001

05-11-2006, 03:42 PM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

suited connectors have a couple of uses to me
1. To call a typical Taggs pfr and steal on a flop that missed him
2. To make my pfr range non-typical i.e people might call my pfr with AJ in the blinds or lp and go bust on tp because soemtimes i raise 97s and c-bet an follow up on later streets.
3. when deep stacked 150bbs+ (perhaps only 200bbs) i use them as reraising hands at times to make my reraising range less predictable.

I think a big looser for me originally was Axs without the correct implied odds. Also AQo vs 87s preflop is only a 60/40 dog so we are stealing a decent amount of dead money with as much nothing as an opp with AQ.

As a thought, id think raising with 87s or the like should be done only enough to steal blinds and create a non-specific pfr raising range. However, it has much more use as a hand to be taken HU against a pfr'er with a predictable range.

jackvance

05-11-2006, 03:53 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

Miffed I think you show great insight here in the concepts of Lagg play and floating. Nice post.

Your point 1= floating, and indeed only do this vs Tagg, ABC poker players. Floating vs a Lagg is stupid.. it'll be crap vs crap..

Your point 2= Lagg preflop style.. only do this on tight tables however where everyone is playing ABC poker. You are riding the waves of fold equity here.

Your point 3= bully tactics when big-stacked

Eck979

05-11-2006, 04:20 PM

#15 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Harrisburg

Posts: 9

"77 loves to be an underset and is red across the board."
That exact thing happened to me last night and lost me 60 bucks on one hand at NL50

Rondavu

05-11-2006, 05:58 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

How much $$$ did 98s make for AA which in turn made $$$ for you?

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

BankItDrew

05-11-2006, 06:49 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Posts: 2,789

BankItDrew will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

How much $$$ did 98s make for AA which in turn made $$$ for you?

Show me an equation to calculate table image, and I'll answer your question.

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Lukie

05-11-2006, 11:41 PM

#18 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

for the record i never said suited connectors were always unplayable hands, in many spots I think they are playable and profitable (while others they are undoubtedly not).

I just said they have lost me money, but that is over a wide range of limits, different sizes of tables, etc. Not to mention my game has been evolving since the start of that database.

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