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wufwugy
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03-29-2007, 04:33 AM
Post subject: low pockets or medium SCs?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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this may be kind of a silly question, but im still asking.
if you could only be dealt one of these hand groupings, 44-66 or 45s-67s, which one would you choose? the pairs or the SCs?
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Pairs. Reason are obvious, here are two of them:
- sets
- pair beat bluffs, six high doesn't
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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pairs, and it is a silly question 
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vrax
Pairs. Reason are obvious, here are two of them:
- sets
- pair beat bluffs, six high doesn't
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this sums it up.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vrax
Pairs. Reason are obvious, here are two of them:
- sets
- pair beat bluffs, six high doesn't
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another silly question:
22-55 or 89s-QJs?
still suppose i prefer the pockets because of set value alone. hard to avoid busto on a Q 4 J flop when villain has the 44 in the hole. if i hold QJs, i may mistakenly put villain on AQ or QT.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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yea i know it's a silly question. im an expert at running horrible for yet another time, and rerererererequestioning basic strategy.
my personal opinion is that SCs are pretty much garbage except for in games where metagame is necessary, and i find low pockets frustrating since i've gone for very very long streaks of never hitting and folding, hitting and getting no action, hitting and getting drawn out on, or hitting and being outflopped by flushes and straights and bigger sets. bleh.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i disagree about sc's. i think they are a valuable part of your repitoire. you need them for image, and you need to open-raise them some, and show it to the table. even at a $5 table.
the only way you get paid on them is to show the rocks you play them. and the only way to make them profitable is to only play them when you hit a huge flop for them. otherwise drop them. oh, and dont do it all the time, but dont be afraid to call standard raises with them, in position.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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pairs cos they win like infinity times more money than scs (i say infinity because small suited connectors don't win money)
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
i disagree about sc's. i think they are a valuable part of your repitoire. you need them for image, and you need to open-raise them some, and show it to the table. even at a $5 table.
the only way you get paid on them is to show the rocks you play them.
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this is why referred to when metagame is necessary.
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and the only way to make them profitable is to only play them when you hit a huge flop for them. otherwise drop them. oh, and dont do it all the time, but dont be afraid to call standard raises with them, in position.
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you limp behind three limpers with T9 of diamonds. flop is J62 two diamonds. there's a bet and a call. maybe same on turn. somebody else on a diamond draw?
or how bout the flop's paired, or you're on a straight draw but there's two flush of a different suit than yours? what if you flop a difficult to draw to inside draw, dummie end draw, non-nut double bellybuster? say the turn completes your draw, maybe another connector or suited card comes out?
i've run real bad with non-nut flushes and straights getting redrawn, i heard that Greenstein mentioned that he thinks SCs are garbage in NL and that he only likes suited aces since the flush is nuts and you can spike an ace, so i just stopped playing them. maybe to my detriment. i honestly do not know cuz i dont have a bunch of experience with them.
i'd like to see some good explanations on SCs once all metagame aspects have been ruled out. cuz like i said, i think metagame is what may just push them from neg ev to plus.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
pairs cos they win like infinity times more money than scs (i say infinity because small suited connectors don't win money)
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what constitutes as a small sc?
below 54s?
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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you limp behind three limpers with T9 of diamonds. flop is J62 two diamonds. there's a bet and a call. maybe same on turn. somebody else on a diamond draw?
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semi-bluff the flop, imo. you need to weed out any other weak flush draws, and backdoors. Ad isnt going anywhere, but play for free turn, and take chances on river. if shown strength, give up w/o odds. i'll get flamed for that response, but it works on the flop, and when it hits on the river, a check-call still wins often enough to make it worth it. losing this one to another d-d holding is as rare as set-over-set, just hope it doesnt four-flush on you.
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or how bout the flop's paired, or you're on a straight draw but there's two flush of a different suit than yours? what if you flop a difficult to draw to inside draw, dummie end draw, non-nut double bellybuster? say the turn completes your draw, maybe another connector or suited card comes out?
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-flop pairs...not good for you, unless you have trips. dump.
-two flush, diff suit...take away the odds with a flop bet, maybe 2-barrel if passive opponent likes to chase; if flush hits, give up; if not, bet river and watch him drop missed flush.
-difficult to draw to inside draw???... gutshots, i dont chase, unless everyone plays for a min-bet.
-dummie...sure, play away. watch for the over cards completing dominated str8s. if that happens, dump to aggression, but play it fast to bump out the draw.
-non-nut dbl bbuster...thats 8 outs where i come from, play away.
-turn completes...if you have been playing fast, you might check oop. if checked to, look for redraws and keep playing fast.
-four carders...danger will robinson. i dont see how you let it go w/o a good read, but dont raise w/o one either.
flame away, boys!!
but, imo, you cannot ALWAYS play these passively. sometimes, in the right situations (too many to discuss), you need to sell that you may have TPTK or stronger and play for FE. you can set it up with a pfr, but if you mix it up (bet sometimes, check sometimes, sometimes in the same hand), you will have your opponents giving you credit for strong holdings more often. do the unexpected...when you want to call, RAISE. when you want to raise that TPTK out, CALL. if you hit, c/r him.
again, it all comes with experience. and i am certainly no expert player. but, sc's no longer scare me, especially on passive tables because they pay off with semi-bluffs, and buy pots with aggression...if you have a tighter image AT THAT TABLE.
play like a rock for the first few orbits, and if you see passive players...open up and play sc's hard...from position. and, if the table is aggro...only play them hard with position and MULTIPLE CALLERS to raises.
just my .02...well, more like a nickel with this wordiness.
btw, whos the piece of arse in you avatar? shes smokin. nh.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
pairs cos they win like infinity times more money than scs (i say infinity because small suited connectors don't win money)
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what constitutes as a small sc?
below 54s? |
maybe 89s minus?
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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ive no clue who my av is
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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too bad. 
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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easily pairs... sets are fun.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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I like them all, the truth is you can't pick which hands you want. You take what you're given and you play them to the best of your ability.
The one place where I differ from the group with SCs vs. PPs is mid-late in tourneys. I tend to limp pairs and raise SCs.
SCs are better against big pairs, so when a shortstacked blind wakes up with something, you can be better off if you call an AI.
Pairs are worth more for set value than blind stealing in certain situations, so I almost never raise little pairs preflop.
I just got back from a poker room, the guy on my left kept getting little pairs in his blinds. So while I'm limping on the button and SB, he's raising with 44 and 66 over and over.
He didn't hit a single set, and threw away probably 30 blinds or so from raising those preflop. And he managed to build huge pots out of position.
So yeah, SCs I like for loose raises and pairs I like for set hunting. I'm an equal opportunity card player.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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