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alias2211
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04-22-2005, 01:16 AM
Post subject: losing top two pair to a set
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U, S and A!!!
Posts: 469
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I have noticed that I have been getting killed when I have top 2 pair heads up against sets. It will come with me playing like a KQ, then hitting them on the flop, but the small card giving a guy a set. Can you give me some help in reading hands on turn and river in this case? I have to start being able to pick up the sets and fold in this area or i will continue to lose money on high two pair. Of course it doesn't happen often but it has happened a few times now.
$100 NL @ UB full ring usually.
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bigg_nate
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 157
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It's even less likely that you're beaten by a higher set if you have top two than if you have bottom set. Since people typically don't worry about set-over-set, I also wouldn't worry about set-over-top-two.
- Nate
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arkalore
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6
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I'm still new to this, but here is my 2cw.
If I'm holding top 2 pair after the flop I will make a smallish (BB or 1.5xBB) raise to find how other are going and to bring in more to the pot. Depending on how this goes I fold or make a big raise and hope that no one calls the bluff. In other words, I hope that they think I have a pocket pair of the top card that will give me the top set.
This does not work all the time, but I have taken the pot this way more often than lose.
-Arka
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ekillian
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 235
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigg_nate
Since people typically don't worry about set-over-set, I also wouldn't worry about set-over-top-two.
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Even if I didn't argue with what you're saying I must say your line of thinking is awful. "Since typical people don't, I don't?" Typical people are fish to feed on. Plus... Top two can be dropped. It's hard, but the situations are quite imaginable. If you know your player. Say you know there is a tight player who limps with pairs and plays sets hard. You flop top two. He bets you raise and he re-raises... There are enough players who don't mix it up so that you could find yourself in a situation like this. I mean it's not a likely situation just because you'd have to know your player well, but it's very possible.
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ekillian
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 235
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkalore
I'm still new to this, but here is my 2cw.
If I'm holding top 2 pair after the flop I will make a smallish (BB or 1.5xBB) raise to find how other are going and to bring in more to the pot. Depending on how this goes I fold or make a big raise and hope that no one calls the bluff. In other words, I hope that they think I have a pocket pair of the top card that will give me the top set.
This does not work all the time, but I have taken the pot this way more often than lose.
-Arka
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A bluff with top two? Of course you take this pot more often than you lose it. That tends to happen with a strong hand. However... betting min or 1.5 min? bah... min betting should never be part of your regular play. There are situation for it, but not enough that you should be able to say "If this happens I bet min". the guy with the gutshot straight draw will call. The turn will give him a flush draw and he'll call your next bet. And then he'll bust you on the river with his surprise flush. lol that's a drastic way of saying that min bets don't accomplish much at all. How much are you building the pot? Not a lot.
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arkalore
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6
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Quote:
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...The turn will give him a flush draw and he'll call your next bet...
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This is exactly what I want to happen, I want him to call the flop and fold on the turn when I make the big raise, that does not always happen, but it happens enough.
I find this works better than raising big on the flop. As I have said, I'm still new to this but this is what I have found has worked for me so far.
-Arka
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SpceManSpif
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10
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I think you need to make a bigger bet after the flop to see where you stand. I will bet half the pot to the whole pot depeding if there is a flush draw on the board. If I get called or reraised then I really need to start looking at what the other person might have. Min betting lets someone in too cheap and catch a card that could destroy your two pair more often then someone floping trips.
Shoot, If you have the right table image and if the board flops in your favor, You might be able to get the trips to fold with a good size bet.
I've folded Pocket A's even after I flopped trips because the tightest player at the table reraised me buy going all in after 3 spades hit the board. ( What sucked for me is none of my aces where spades. Did find out later that he had KQ spade and knew I had the trips. He didnt want me to pair up the board.)
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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with top 2 pair, i'd have to be very convinced i was beaten, even then i'm stubborn enough to not fold this.
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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top two pair i hope to play like a set. i'm hoping they have overcards and are really laying into me. yea you'll get burned by a board pair where you won't with sets, but this is how i hope 2 pair goes.
otherwise, i play 2 pair hard but i usually won't push a full stack with it, unless i'm in the previous situation or the other guy is an idiot.
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alias2211
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U, S and A!!!
Posts: 469
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Thanks for the replies all. I have been playing top two pair hard, at least 1/2 pot if not pot bet, depending on the opponent. I am just going to start looking at reraises a little more deeply I suppose.
How about this consideration: It just seems like w/ top two I want to take that damn thing down on the flop, when i get the reraise that doesn't come from someone I sense is riding TPTK, I freeze. I almost should re-reraise and figure it out right there: if I get pushed, I fold. But what about the turn here? Do I bet out hard again or check-raise? Seems like it's at this point in the hand where I'm really weak. If I bet hard, I get pushed against. If I check, I get bet against. Maybe it just comes down to me recognizing that top two pair doesn't work that well for me. But I don't want to just roll over on it, should be a money maker in the long run.
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bigg_nate
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 157
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ekillian
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigg_nate
Since people typically don't worry about set-over-set, I also wouldn't worry about set-over-top-two.
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Even if I didn't argue with what you're saying I must say your line of thinking is awful. "Since typical people don't, I don't?" Typical people are fish to feed on. |
You're right, of course -- I should have said something like "if you don't worry about set-over-set, it would be inconsistent to worry about set-over-top-two".
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ekillian
Plus... Top two can be dropped.
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Definitely -- top two is far from invincible. Just trying to answer the original poster's question.
- Nate
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spot
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5
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The real question is how often you would recognize the set and correctly fold vs how often you would get bluffed into folding. I would say that the situation is rare enough that you would almost certainly be costing yourself money long term if you are constantly worried about that set coming up unless you REALLY know the people you are playing against.
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Lucid
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 142
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I think that you need more information in order to correctly choose whether to lay down your hand. Here are two scenarios:
1) There was no raise preflop. You get top two pair and you are playing from late position. An average player who is slightly loose with average aggression bets from the big blind. Reraise and be willing to go all-in. Since there was no initial raise preflop and this player is playing from the big blind and raising instead of check-raising he probably has two smaller pairs (pretend in this case that its a KQ5 flop and you have KQ.
2) You are in late position. There is only one limper in early position. You raise with AT and try to steal or isolate the tight passive in early position. It doesn't work and you get the small blind and the early caller. The flop comes with AT3 with two diamonds. Both of the players check to you. You bet out pot size or so. One player from the sb folds. The other player is in early position and now reraises you 3x your bet. This player is very tight and passive. He would only call a bet from early position with a pocket pair. He has a set of 3s or Ts and has you beat. Lay the hand down. Of course he could also have AK but he probably would have reraised.
Alias you need to keep track of hands like this and post the exact hand history so that we can analyze it and give you a better answer. There are many variations that each have a different correct choice based on the exact situation.
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