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Erpel

03-21-2008, 12:34 AM Post subject: Line check please

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 605

I think I played this hand correctly, but would appreciate some feedback.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (10 handed) Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver

Button ($2.02)
SB ($12.62)
BB ($9.85)
UTG ($5.54)
UTG+1 ($3.43)
Hero ($12.46)
MP1 ($1.85)
MP2 ($10.90)
MP3 ($1.80)
CO ($15.67)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Kc, 8c.
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $0.4, 3 folds, SB calls $0.35, BB calls $0.30, UTG folds, Hero calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.70) Qc, 9c, 7c(4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1.6, Hero raises to $5, MP2 folds, SB folds, Hero calls $4.45.

Thinking: Early position K8s is not a great hand, but the table is weak/tight, so I might be able to outplay whoever else is in the hand post-flop - and if my suit comes on the flop I figure my hand has some show down potential - so I limp in. (Edit note: UTG is a calling station)
A raise is put in and when it comes around to me there are 3 people in the pot. Since a K-high flush would be near-nuts I think that remote as the odds are the implied odds are good with three 100BB stacks seeing the flop - I call.
Flop comes and finishes my K-high flush. At this time I don't even have reads or ranges on the others but figure I'm likely to be good no matter what. I figure anyone with an A-high flush will check or bet weakly to induce a raise. Someone with Ac unsuited I'd expect to c/c. Someone with a lower completed flush would be more likely to put in a pot-size bet to protect a somewhat vulnerable flush with cards to come. I note that the flop is close enough together to lend itself to straight draws.
With BB's bet my immediate thought is to put him on Jc or Tc with another club.
I figure that with a made flush he'll likely be ready to play for stacks, and I don't particularly want anyone sitting with Ac to feel invited to join in and outdraw us both - so I put in a healthy raise and we end up playing for stacks.

After the show down MP2 who did the initial PF raise (with AKo, he claims) says that my PF call was a poor play. I thought my PF call was correct due to the implied odds. I'd appreciate any comments, especially those that rightly berate me for that which I forgot to consider.

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Hawk

03-21-2008, 04:20 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 367

Fold preflop, the first time...that said, if I DID decide that was good enough to limp, the call isn't terrible, especially as you are closing the betting round.

After your great flop, well played.

EDIT: If you want to play hands like that because of your weak opponents, try to limit it to when you have good position.

ChrisBCritter

03-21-2008, 01:18 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Falmouth, ME

Posts: 781

I'm not a big fan of your limp either, I would've either raised or folded. But you definitely had implied odds to call the raise, and plus the fact you were closing the action...Flops don't get much better than that, except for below...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed)

SB ($9.53)
BB ($9.04)
UTG ($5.56)
UTG+1 ($4.40)
Hero ($8.31)
MP2 ($6)
MP3 ($15.74)
CO ($5)
Button ($5.72)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with

. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05. CO posts a blind of $0.05.
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.3, MP2 (poster) calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO (poster) raises to $0.55, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25.

Flop: ($1.72)

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets $1.67, Hero raises to $7.76, MP2 folds, CO calls $2.78 (All-In).

Turn: ($10.62)

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.62)

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $10.62

Hero has Kc 5c (flush, ace high).
CO has Ad Qc (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $10.12 (Rake $0.50)

I was just trying to get the dead money! This is why you don't min-raise 3-bet, you get LAGGYs like me to come along for the ride. Flop was Gin. This was villians first and last hand at the table!

Hey knucklehead! Bonk!

Erpel

03-21-2008, 04:13 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 605

Thanks for the replies. My normal line is to fold without a thought, but I sometimes vary my play if I feel a table is particularly weak, or my image allows it. I'll be happy to admit that this limp was more on instinct then based on a considered evaluation of whether it would be a +EV move. I was only playing on one table at the time and was paying a lot of attention to how the other players played and felt at this time that I would able to tell if I ended up way behind on the flop and be able to get out of a hand I wasn't particularly married to in the case of a missed flop.

I know the dangers of playing one table - it's boring and very easy to end up playing more hands than is wise. One of the first thing I started doing when I started playing was play more than one table at a time to distract me and keep from making stupid plays out of boredom. Recently I've started occasionally doing some one-table sessions where I try to pay attention to and take notes on everything and have good time to make sure I think through what's happening. If I do anywhere near the amount of things I should do in every hand there is no time to be bored even on just one table.

When I made the post-raise call I was very aware I would have position for the rest of the hand, which would allow me to get out if I missed and someone decided to lead into the hand - or bet/raise in position.

I'd be interested to hear if my predictions on villain's range at the time of his post-flop bet are reasonable. It happened to be correct, but that could have been me having a wrong thought process and him making a poor play. I think we can agree that he shouldn't have played Tc6c pre-flop the way he did - I'm thinking about the expectations I expressed regarding betting, which he happened to match.

taipan168

03-21-2008, 11:37 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Erpel

My normal line is to fold without a thought, but I sometimes vary my play if I feel a table is particularly weak, or my image allows it. I'll be happy to admit that this limp was more on instinct then based on a considered evaluation of whether it would be a +EV move. I was only playing on one table at the time and was paying a lot of attention to how the other players played and felt at this time that I would able to tell if I ended up way behind on the flop and be able to get out of a hand I wasn't particularly married to in the case of a missed flop.

Don't forget you are in bad position here. If you were on the Button and there were a number of limpers in front I could see calling or raising the first time, but I would open fold this everytime from bad position regardless. Once you limp, I agree with the others that you have implied odds to call but I wouldn't be in this spot in the first place.

Also, I think you are overestimating the extent to which you can outplay 10NL players postflop and the extent to which they are watching you and observing how you play. Outplaying other players postflop basically means that they will fold hands that beat you which relies on them being aware of the messages you are sending with your play. Been a while since I played 10NL but my guess is that the players are calling stations who won't appreciate when they are likely beat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erpel

When I made the post-raise call I was very aware I would have position for the rest of the hand, which would allow me to get out if I missed and someone decided to lead into the hand - or bet/raise in position.

Doesn't MP2 still act after you postflop?

Fnord

03-21-2008, 11:50 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by taipan168

Outplaying other players postflop basically means that they will fold hands that beat you which relies on them being aware of the messages you are sending with your play.

Pushing people off hands is over-rated.

Out-playing to me means:
Getting maxium value. Can you find river bets with one pair? How good are you at manipulating the size of the pot to play a big pot when you want to play one?
Getting away from good second best hands.
Taking down pots when the other guy(s) miss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Erpel

03-22-2008, 09:39 AM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 605

All of which adds up to stop being a donk and playing hands that should be folded. I'll work on it. Thanks for the feedback.

Erpel

03-25-2008, 12:00 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 605

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Actually on second reading thanks for this reply. I know that I'm answering it for my own benefit, but thanks for the question.

Pushing people off hands - is a bit illusory. I sometimes think I can do it, but what happens is that they don't have a hand and fold it, or do have a hand and I give them all my chips. I can be too mindless when I've decided to be aggressive and need to stop and think more. Targeted aggression is more effective than mindless aggression.

Can I find river bets with one pair? Not sure exactly what the question is - can I make myself bet on the river if I only have one pair made? Too easily, I'm afraid. Unthinking aggression (bluffs) is probably my main leak at this time. Manipulate pot size - I more often fail at this than do well at it. I'm beginning to incorporate it into my play though.

Can I get away from second best hands? Most of the time yes. Maybe even playing too weakly. I tend to throw away any middle/low pair to any aggression on the flop or later if I don't have a strong drawing hand also. Probably I'm too weak here because I'm overcompensating for my impulse to throw in a healthy big bluff if I decide (not always rationally) that my opponent doesn't have a made big hand. Sucks when I'm right that he's weak, but his middle pair still beats my low pair.

Taking down pots when the other guy(s) miss - I tend to do this. But what I do wrong here is base it a little too much on guesswork (ok he checked on the flop - he missed the flop) than a solid understanding of which range he has played.

jyms

03-25-2008, 12:39 PM Post subject: Re: Line check please

#9 (permalink)

Tilting Mod

Join Date: Feb 2006

Posts: 4,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erpel

NO NO NO, everyone needs to stop looking at the rest of this HH. This is $10NL a FR and the hero just overlimped UTG+2 with Kxs. If he lost his stack we would all be telling him to fold. This is a fold everytime at these stakes for a beginner. Just because you can get a HH where it worked out does not make this a good play. The EV of this move is losing money long term, I don't care about the rest of the hand. Stop being results oriented.

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