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zook
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07-24-2006, 11:29 PM
Post subject: Limping vs. raising in LP behind limpers
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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I'm making my first attempt at a strategy post. I'm a relative noob at FTR and only play at 50NL (hopefully rolled to move up soon), but I've been inspired by some recent posts and books and think it will help my game if I write some things down and get feedback. Feel free to flame away.
I'm halfway through my second read of Sklansky & Miller's NLHE T&P and it's really changing the way I approach the game. They emphasize pot control and playing for stacks as the crucial skills for a successful ring player. Maybe this is "duh" for most of you, but the plays they recommend as a result are often opposite of FTR common wisdom. For example, they recommend limping UTG with certain hands, open-limping from the button and even min-raising occasionally pre-flop. (I don’t quite understand their reasoning behind the last one.)
Ok, onto the topic of this post… on the button or in the CO and a limper or two (or three) has entered the pot in front of you. Until recently I raised here with my premium hands, any PP, suited connectors >78, suited aces, any two broadways, and occasionally suited kings, suited gappers, unsuited aces and trash. The tighter the table and more likely to fold to my 4XBB+1XBB/limper raise, the more likely I was to raise it. I felt like a big bully and enjoyed scooping up my $1.25-$2.25 pots and occasionally getting players to play back at me when they got tired of my raises. This was fine, and I was a winning player over a small sample size (~10,000 hands), but after reading T&P I realized that a) you don't make your money at ring stealing $1.75 pots (I'm not saying it doesn't help your win rate, but stacks are the thing), and b) it might be better to see a flop with hands that give good implied odds (low PPs, Axs, suited connectors, suited gappers) and hope the flop hits you and another limper. So over the last 5,000 hands or so, I’ve changed my strategy in this situation to mainly limping behind limpers with 22-77, suited connectors <JT, suited gappers, and suited aces <A9. I still raise a lot, but it's with my premium hands plus any two broadways, Ax, Kx, and trash. So far it’s working really well and I’ve stacked a few players with well-concealed monsters. I end up folding the flop a lot, but I bet or raise with strong draws and in LP I’m able to steal orphan pots or float occasionally. I’m looking forward to putting it to the test over a much larger sample size.
A counterintuitive part of this pre-flop strategy is that the situations where I used to like to raise the most (when I thought the table would fold around) are now the times I’m LEAST likely to raise with certain hands (the big implied odds hands like small PPs, suited aces, suited connectors and suited gappers). I want to play these hands, not steal blinds and limps with them. It’s important to note that the strategy changes if the limpers or blinds have been calling my pre-flop raises often. Then I’m more than happy to raise these big implied odds hands and start building the pot pre-flop.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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i've been limping here as well for awhile and i think i like it. a couple things about low stakes...
1- more fish.
2-fish take bad hands (TPWK or even less) too far post-flop.
3-fish slowplay too much.
i'm fine limping these hands because if i'm gonna raise them pre-flop i have to raise pretty heavily and that can easily turn into a bloated pot early leaving me with a pretty expensive c-bet, if i even do c-bet the flop, especially if i get more than 1 caller. if i raise medium-sized then i have a bloated pot vs. many opponents. if i just limp then i have a smaller pot to work with vs. people who slowplay too often and take bad hands too far. i don't mind that situation.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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BobbySalami
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Limbo
Posts: 433
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I am confused here...
Well first of all, i agree 100% with your views, but I have learned all of these things through the help of everyone here at FTR, i thought this was the common knowledge here?
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If you wanna turn your daddy parts ORANGE eat some cheetos and watch some porn!
Currently sucking at life!
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BobbySalami
I am confused here...
Well first of all, i agree 100% with your views, but I have learned all of these things through the help of everyone here at FTR, i thought this was the common knowledge here?
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doesn't seem like it is common to me. not sure why lol. i have no examples but it just doesn't "seem" like it. oh well...
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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BobbySalami
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Limbo
Posts: 433
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Well, I mean for low limit fish filled play at least......
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If you wanna turn your daddy parts ORANGE eat some cheetos and watch some porn!
Currently sucking at life!
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BobbySalami
i thought this was the common knowledge here?
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It probably is. Maybe I should have posted in the beginner's forum. I guess the point I wanted to make was how I came to appreciate selective positional aggression. With which cards, against which opponents, and why.
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BobbySalami
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Limbo
Posts: 433
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Dont get me wrong, good post, you just summed up a lot of what I have learned from FTR alone...
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If you wanna turn your daddy parts ORANGE eat some cheetos and watch some porn!
Currently sucking at life!
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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I raise a pretty wide range in position vs. 1 limper. If there are multiple limpers I only raise the effective odds type of hands (KQ, AJ etc.) and limp behind with implied odds hands (SC's, gappers).
It's just very +EV to bully a single limper. But you'll need a few players in the hand to make the probability of a decent 2nd best hand, overplayed draw etc. greater.
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