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Strung
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03-01-2006, 05:27 AM
Post subject: Limping then getting raised
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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I was just wondering what range of hands you would call a raise (and how big of a raise) with after you have limped with something excluding poket pairs ie: suited connectors.
I often find myself limping hands like Axs or suited conectors and I might get raised behind. Often I'll just muck but how many players calling this raise/how big of raise make calling this profitable? Is it ever OK to call that 4-5xBB raise Heads up with those suited connectors you limped?
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Strung
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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I'm surprised NOBODY has an opinion on this as I would think it's a fairly common thing.
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Les_Worm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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Limp/calling raises when no one else is in the pot is just spewing chips. You really want to see a cheap flop w/ Ax and suited connectors because you want to make straights/flushes and the occasional flopped 2 pair. If you limp with one of these hands you want to have a couple callers in the pot in front of you.
There are times when I call with these hands heads up and that is when my opponent is weak post flop and I can take the pot down by outplaying him.
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Be patient, you only asked 14hrs ago.
My call of a raise after I had just limped with suited connectors depends on a few factors:
1) Position - First of all, I never limp in EarlyPosition (EP) with suited connectors because if the pot is raised, I'm going to fold. If I am in LP, I may call, depending on 2).
2) Implied odds - # of players calling the initial raise. If someone ahead of me raises, but then a few other players ahead of him call, I am now investing a smaller % of my own $$ into the pot. This is a good reason to call.
3) Table presence - One way to portray a loose image is to play more hands, suited connectors are a good way to accomplish this. To best present yourself as a loose player though, I would recommend raising with suited connectors instead of limping them (only in late position for myself however, too risky in EP). Your % of winning any given pot increases if you are the first one to bet or raise. You'll notice that more often than not the player who bets first in an unraised pot is going to take it down post-flop as well.
4) Stack sizes - Can you afford it? If you have an average stack at the table (80-100% max buy-in), dink around with this strategy. If the initial raiser has a small stack, don't get involved. example: his stack is $10, his raise is $1, expect him to try to get in his whole stack this hand. Your suited connectors however, are going to have to become a made hand (straight, flush) in order for you to win @ the showdown. Same goes for your small stack - don't play suited connectors unless you have enough $$ to be chasing or bluffing with position.
That being said - play suited connectors cautiously, there is no sense in loosing your stack with 8high.
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Without reading anyone else's response:
1)My first goal is what did you limp with.Is it a decent Axs such as A9s/ATs where you may be ok kicker wise if you miss your flush draw?Is it an ok suited connector like JTs/QJs where you have strong flush and straight potential?Was it a mid PP like 88/99 where you probably won't lose to a better set(god forbid)?
OR
did you lose discipline and limp with A3s,44,or 56s and now are facing a decent raise from someone who has you outstacked and is capable os playing ok poker postflop?
These are the main questions I would ask.
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storm75m
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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...something else I factor in, I may play my suited connectors against an overly aggressive player that may be on tilit, because of implied odds alone... or against a weak player that you may be able to outplay postflop.
And I also always fold Axs to a raise if x < 8
Other than that BankItPayettte hit it dead on.
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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mdwav
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ont, Canada
Posts: 59
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I'd like to add that in NL your opponent can bet enough to make you fold on the flop (or draw incorrectly). If you fell in love with suited connectors because of SS1, also keep in mind that Doyle says these hands play best against ppl that believe in slowplaying big pairs. Most players (in my experience) don't play that way, they simply pot the flop and turn, especially if they're staring at a (possible) flush draw. Thus the only flops you'll be happy with are the uber-draws mentioned above (which would be an open-end straight flush draw and (maybe) a pair and a flush draw), but these are pretty darn rare. I guess a pair and an OESD is good too, but even if you get all-in on the flop with these hands and get called (or they push and you call), you're essentially in a coin-flip. And if you don't get it on the flop, it'll be tough to get it all-in when you make trips, a straight, or a flush because in most cases these are quite obvious.
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" Don’t misunderstand. A pro isn’t someone who sacrifices himself for his job. That’s just a fool.” - Reno
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Fnord
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03-06-2006, 10:34 AM
Post subject: Re: Limping then getting raised
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#8 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
I was just wondering what range of hands you would call a raise (and how big of a raise) with after you have limped with something excluding poket pairs ie: suited connectors.
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I tend not to have this problem, because if I'm playing Axs or connected trah like hands outside of the CO/BN I'm comming in for a raise and rarely call one with these hands.
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Irisheyes
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03-06-2006, 10:54 AM
Post subject: Re: Limping then getting raised
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#9 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
I was just wondering what range of hands you would call a raise (and how big of a raise) with after you have limped with something excluding poket pairs ie: suited connectors.
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I tend not to have this problem, because if I'm playing Axs or connected trah like hands outside of the CO/BN I'm comming in for a raise and rarely call one with these hands. |
Exactly, Strung you shouldn't be even having this problem. Fold Axs everywhere by the way, unless you can come up with 3 reasons not to other then "I might get a flush draw".
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Fnord
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03-06-2006, 11:04 AM
Post subject: Re: Limping then getting raised
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#10 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Exactly, Strung you shouldn't be even having this problem. Fold Axs everywhere by the way, unless you can come up with 3 reasons not to other then "I might get a flush draw".
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Usually it's something like: this guy is either limping a small pair or playing dogshit cards out of position. I'm going to play some position poker until he's sick of it, then stack him. Or maybe I'll get lucky and just out-flop him horribly on this hand.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I'm okay calling raises with suited connectors when all the circumstances (stacks, position, aggro factor of villain etc) are acceptable. What you want the villain to have are high cards - AA or AK is great if you have 78s and make your straight on a flop which also feature an ace.
The disadvantage with limping in is that at best your opponents are likely to have PPs which set on the flop - more often, they're just going to let go of their hands that much more easily when you try and stake your claim.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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One variable no one seems to've mentioned is the relative skill level of your opponent. You should be more willing to call a raise from a bad player than from a good player in this situation, since they're likelier to make poor decisions after the flop.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
One variable no one seems to've mentioned is the relative skill level of your opponent. You should be more willing to call a raise from a bad player than from a good player in this situation, since they're likelier to make poor decisions after the flop.
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It depends on "bad". Many players in these games will raise way too tight of a range. Outplaying the JJ+/AQ+ range (or tighter!) is rather difficult, particularly if they tend to take hands a little too far and don't have more than 100bb behind.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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My strategy, having not read the other responses:
First of all it has to be an non-dominated trapping hand that no one sees coming, for me to elect to cold call a raise.
Namely,
22-TT
45s-TJs
35s-9Js
I never call raises with unsuited connectors. That extra 4% or so chance of winning with a flush adds up over time.
I will elect to call raises with hands like this base on the following parameters.
1) Late position (always)
2) Stack depth. If I am doubled up to $50 at a 25nl table and another big stack raises PF, I am highly likely to call with these hands in an effort to become a $100 stack. Implied odds make this profitable.
3) Pot odds. Not quite as important, but if theres an 8-way family pot developing and I have a suited connector, I am highly likely to make this call.
Also these parameters need to be much larger to facilitate a call with suited connectors rather than pocket pairs, which don't need quite as much. I will limp/call any pocket pair in any position unless the raise is just disproportionately large.
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