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wellrounded08
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08-31-2008, 02:19 AM
Post subject: Limping Behind
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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What? Where? When? Why?
what cards in what positions, why?
All input is welcome, Any links are welcome, I'm just not familiar with any.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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When to Just Limp Behind
Suppose there are two aggressive middle position limpers, and we have 76s on the button. Here it's probably best to limp behind, since we've got a hand that plays great multi-way, and we're going to see a flop in position with a lot of money behind with at least four players. Note that this is often the case when there are 3 or more limpers whenever you have suited connectors, suited one-gappers, ace-small suited, small pairs, and other hands that get a lot of value from implied odds.
Suppose that at a 9-handed table, an UTG player that you know nothing about limps, and it's folded to you on the cutoff with A8s. Quite often you would like to make a raise with this hand in late position against a limper, but you should beware. Be very, very cautious about raising early position limpers if you don't know anything about them. At micro and low stakes, players absolutely love to limp/raise and limp/call preflop with big pairs and big premium unpaired hands, and this can cost you big. Now, since we don't know anything about this guy, we can still limp behind and own him with our implied odds. Also note that it would be preferable to fold hands like K9o that have no real implied odds only 100bb deep.
Courtesy of Spoonitnow from his article "Raising Behind Limpers" that can be found in the FR digest.
Basically you want a hand that plays well multiway, such as suited connectors, small-mid pps, etc. Now technically you could isolate the limpers with a raise as well, but some hands, and situations, are better to limp behind expecting to be paid big when you flop big.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Also it depends on how the limpers play post-flop. If they're very stubborn, call light, raise light, etc. then I'm more inclined to limp. If they tend to give up I'm more inclined to isolate.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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What positions are you willing to Limp behind? Is there a cuttoff?(not CO...) What about SB?
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loktakwah
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One tricky play in EP is to limp behind a really bad player after he limps UTG if there is an aggressive player to your left. If you raise, he is likely to 3bet since he knows you're trying to isolate the fish. If you call, he'll raise trying to isolate the fish, then you squeeze him and the fish.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Remember the goal is to win moniez not hands... so play big hands for big pots, small hands for small pots. Big TPTK or overpairs are big hands pre-flop... they become smaller as you move through the streets. Drawing hands start smaller and need good implied odds to let you see as many streets as possible... which is much easier with a smaller starting pot... and then when they hit (and become big...) your problem becomes building the pot to maximize value (a high class problem to have  ) And finally, one pair (and even two pair) hands don't play well with others... they're bigger heads up and get smaller the more people are in the pot. Straight & flush draw hands (and to lesser extent sets) do great multi-way so we're keeping people in.
Raise to build big pots (for big hands) and limit the field (for hands that play better HU)
Limp to benefit from a maller pot (for small or drawing hands) and to keep people along for the ride (optimizing your implied odds)
Also, keep in mind that "big" and "small" are all relative to the size the stacks involved in the hand. A 10BB pot is "big" when it's just you and a 20BB short stacker. The same pot is "small" when you're 90BB deep.
Load in a sh!tload of "it depends" and other stuff and I hope there's something in there that helps. If not... mech, I won't be offended... 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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With an effective stack of 30bb or less, I will over-bet behind limper(s) intending to shove any flop.
It's really funny when you play a short stack better than the short stackers.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
With an effective stack of 30bb or less, I will over-bet behind limper(s) intending to shove any flop.
It's really funny when you play a short stack better than the short stackers.
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It's funny that you say that. That's what I've been working on lately after reading your shorstacker article, and one on 2+2. What's great is that most of the shortstackers in these micro limits are not "shortstackers" at all, they are playing "normal" with their stack, so they are really skittish. I actually had a chance to shove on a single shortstacker like 3 times the other night, eventually he called me preflop with like K9o or some shit like that. I had pocket jacks, and he did NOT spike a king.[/brag]
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Yeah, I LoL pretty hard at people who avoid tables full of unknown short stacks.
EZ monies.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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What hands in the SB are acceptable? I understand the Huge effect of the lack of position, which is why I'm wondering what kind of SB limp behind range is acceptable if playing ABC, TAGG poker?(Remember, 5NL)
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