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Lodogg
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01-03-2006, 07:07 PM
Post subject: Life in the small blind
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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I was wondering what your thoughts are about playing out the small blind? More importantly, is it ever appropriate to play rag hands when there are lots of callers ahead of me with no raises. Excellent pot odds, but position sucks. What about if there are only 2 callers? I think this is a leak in my game, and I haven't found a book out there that addresses this issue. Is it ever appropriate to raise out of the small blind with good (not great hands such as KQs). I am thinking that positon matters most, especially in NL hold'em, and that I should only be playing good hands here in the first place. Is it a leak in my game by always calling the small blind because it is cheap to get in?
Thanks!
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I have the same problem with the SB, let alone having KQ in the SB (I have problems with KQ in position).
The way I see it is this: Don't play cards you wouldn't play in position, just because you get it for half price. Look at that half blind that you didn't complete as a "free pass" at your next small blind price. In other words, instead of calling J8o UTG, call with 22 or 56s UTG next time.
Texas Hold'em is the only time in which the value of a product does not increase when the cost decreases.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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With a lot of callers I'm playing a lot of hands out of the SB.. generally calling anything with potential (any suited, any connected, low-mid PP, high cards) and raising my huge hands (usually QQ-AA). If the open-limper is weak and I'm confident the others just followed in because of increasingly better pot odds, I'll throw in a > pot sized raise with any 2, but that's a move I use sparingly.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Ahhh the small blind.
I take my play from what i read about limit. Ill play/raise any hand as i would normally, so AJorAK/AA etc.
I add extra hands in because of price. SO suited one or two gappers like J9s or J8s i play simply for the flush value. Id add high rated connectors and one gappers like T9 65 78 97 etc into this too. Plus any Ax/kx/qx/jx sooted i play too.
These would appear to be the hands that offer the best implied odds as you know exactly where you are post flop, looking dor good draws. I hate any high card bad kicker in the blind especially Ax.
My VP$IP from the sb is about 36% which i think is good considering the extra hands i would consider playing. I almost break even from the sb.
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bunthorne
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01-04-2006, 07:41 AM
Post subject: Re: Life in the small blind
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#5 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lodogg
I was wondering what your thoughts are about playing out the small blind? More importantly, is it ever appropriate to play rag hands when there are lots of callers ahead of me with no raises. Excellent pot odds, but position sucks. What about if there are only 2 callers? I think this is a leak in my game, and I haven't found a book out there that addresses this issue. Is it ever appropriate to raise out of the small blind with good (not great hands such as KQs). I am thinking that positon matters most, especially in NL hold'em, and that I should only be playing good hands here in the first place. Is it a leak in my game by always calling the small blind because it is cheap to get in?
Thanks!
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Unless I have a decent holding, and unless I'm sure the bb will not raise, I tend to let my sb go, even with hands such as A9 and KJ. I can only get into trouble with these - if an A or a J comes flops I could get hurt and don't want to be faced with this decision. With lesser hands, such as T7, say, what do you do if either of these pairs the board?
It is a personal preference, many will not agree, but I have found that you don't jeopardise your stack with marginal hands in the sb. Hold em is a game of position, position, position.
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Lukie
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01-04-2006, 08:34 AM
Post subject: Re: Life in the small blind
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#6 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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It is a personal preference, many will not agree, but I have found that you don't jeopardise your stack with marginal hands in the sb. Hold em is a game of position, position, position.
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I tend to disagree here. You have excellent position preflop where all but 1 player has been heard from. If it is a multi-way limped pot, you will be receiving excellent pot odds. NLHE is a game of implied odds though, which is why there's really no reason to play complete trash (Q4o).
Because of your awful position and the size of the (limped) pot, there's no reason to risk your stack with a marginal hand out of the SB. If you are putting your stack on the line holding 65 on a flop of K65 or something like that though, there's a problem.
Just a difference in styles though it seems..
edit: also, there's 1 other very key point to make assuming the BB isn't a maniac. There really isn't very many hands that you can legitimitely be raising from the BB, so it's highly likely your cost of admission is just going to be the cost of completing.
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bunthorne
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01-04-2006, 03:20 PM
Post subject: Re: Life in the small blind
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#7 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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It is a personal preference, many will not agree, but I have found that you don't jeopardise your stack with marginal hands in the sb. Hold em is a game of position, position, position.
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I tend to disagree here. You have excellent position preflop where all but 1 player has been heard from. If it is a multi-way limped pot, you will be receiving excellent pot odds. NLHE is a game of implied odds though, which is why there's really no reason to play complete trash (Q4o).
Because of your awful position and the size of the (limped) pot, there's no reason to risk your stack with a marginal hand out of the SB. If you are putting your stack on the line holding 65 on a flop of K65 or something like that though, there's a problem.
Just a difference in styles though it seems..
edit: also, there's 1 other very key point to make assuming the BB isn't a maniac. There really isn't very many hands that you can legitimitely be raising from the BB, so it's highly likely your cost of admission is just going to be the cost of completing. |
Fair points, Lukie, and I agree with your implied implied odds comments, but as you've observed I guess it is simply a difference in styles.
My style of play involves putting my opponents to difficult decisions wherever possible, i.e. taking the pressure off me and putting it on them and I use position as my battering ram. Generally speaking, I don't want to risk being faced with an awkward decision in the sb if I hit a piece of the flop so I'd rather avoid these. I can't get hurt in the hand if I don't play!
Having said that, If I am in a pot and am first to act and suspect my opponents might have missed the flop (eg they have raised with AK and the flop is ragged) I'm likely to have a stab at the pot to try and pick it up. Sometimes being first to act has its advantages!
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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Thanks for all the help on this topic. I played last night and only called the SB with connectors, suited, or normal positional hamds and found myself playing much more comfortably UTG post-flop. Thanks again!!!
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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If I have odds for the hand I'm holding, I ALWAYS call. You can't find yourself getting 13-1 against 6 opponents and fold any hand. It's just absurd. I never bought into the "don't play it because it gets you in trouble postflop" line. If you're beat, then don't put money in. Simple as that. I don't complete the SB with A3 offsuit and then reraise pot sized bets on an ace high board. I just drop it. I got an awesome price, and now I lose. If I flop hard two pair on someone's good ace however, I'm getting payed off.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I never bought into the "don't play it because it gets you in trouble postflop" line.
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ANY BEGINNERS READING THIS CLOSE YOUR EARS!!!
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JCooper
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 42
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I never bought into the "don't play it because it gets you in trouble postflop" line.
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ANY BEGINNERS READING THIS CLOSE YOUR EARS!!! |
Well in a sense it should be true, but coming to accept it for myself required some expensive lessons about my own capacity for stupidity.
I would not say "because it gets you into trouble postflop" though as much as "because you'll have to make more difficult decisions, and difficult decisions are easy to get wrong". If you are only playing A3 hoping to flop two pair then your implied odds are in trouble, because often you won't get paid off and you could easily get outdrawn with a board pair.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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SB play takes a lot of discipline IMO if you are going to be playing a lot of hands. For example, if I'm sitting at a passive table (players limping strong aces), and I complete with A3o out of the SB, I may ignore a flopped ace. I may take a stab at it, but I'm certainly not seeing anything close to an expensive showdown with it. I'm looking for 2 pair, trips (hopefully 3's), wheel, nut flush draw, etc. There's no reason to see an expensive showdown without the best of it. A hand like A3o is just complete trash in a full ring game though. I'd rather play a hand like 75o or something similar.
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