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bunthorne

05-12-2005, 10:58 PM Post subject: least favourite play

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

I'm interested to find out what players' least favourite play against them is, the one which frustrates them most. I'm sure we all have them.

Mine is the re-rebluff which doesn't come off. The rebluff is possibly the strongest play in poker, but when it doesn't come off, it can leave you feeling stupid!

Example - I raise pre-flop, have one caller. Flop comes a medium or low pair and a rag. As the raiser, I bet with two connected overcards, QJs say. Opponent re-raises. I put ithe opponent on an ace with a middle-high kicker and so put in a huge re-reraise (perhaps all-in, representing a big pair with my pre-flop raise) and opponent calls. He has two overcards, such as AK or AQ (my read is right) which is ahead of my QJ, and neither of us hit.

Had I been in my opponents situation, I would have folded when facing the huge re-reraise, which is the correct play as I would be holding not a lot, unless I think the other player is bluffing. If my opponent has read me for a bluff, then I've been outplayed fair and square. But a lot of players can't let go of hands like AK when the flop doesn't offer any help. In the long run this is an inadvisable strategy and I will take the money over a period of time, but in a tournament it can lead to elimination. But, that's poker!

Which type of play do others find frustrating?

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LeFou

05-13-2005, 12:42 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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well for TAgg types the slowplay is going to be your number 1 answer. There's just no beating it when your style is to hammer and hammer until opp shows some sign of life.

So when opp has the mortal humiliating nuts I lose my stack. Don't we all.

I like the reraise bluff. Any move that doesn't come off is frustrating. When this one doesn't fly I mutter something about red cards, take my licks, and get on.

I definitely feel you when you're talking about the opp who's calling not because he reads your bluff, but because he thinks an unimproved AK is good for a fat reraise. Also the guy who's got a pp and just "feels" like another one will be coming along any second now.

DEATH TO ALL THOSE TYPES!

Also, dude, there's no 'u' in "favorite".

bunthorne

05-13-2005, 01:09 AM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Also, dude, there's no 'u' in "favorite".[/quote]

There is where I come from!!!!

bunthorne

05-13-2005, 01:21 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

I definitely feel you when you're talking about the opp who's calling not because he reads your bluff, but because he thinks an unimproved AK is good for a fat reraise. Also the guy who's got a pp and just "feels" like another one will be coming along any second now.

Players not letting go of strong pre-flop hands is just one of those things that happens in poker, and it happens frequently, both in live play and online.

At one of the casinos where I play, a few nights ago I had 77, raised a decent amount pre-flop and was called by the SB. Flop came Q62 rainbow. Without hesitation the small sbind bet, and I immediately put him on AJ or AT (not AK as he didn't reraise) - I was certain he didn't have a Q or any piece of the flop. I called. Turn is a 3. SB bets immediately again (typical fish move - trying to act strong when weak). I actually said to him "you haven't got a Q, you've got AJ or AT and can't let it go" and I raised him all-in. He called and turned over AJ. River was a J!!!!

This is how the game goes, you've just got to forget about it and go on to the next hand. Normally I love to play against these guys, but now and again the weak play is rewarded.

That's why this game of ours is soooooooooo fascinating!!!!

metaxy6

05-13-2005, 03:56 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 328

I can't stand the any 2 suited types. I've got QQ and raise one off the button. The blind decides to defend with 4 8 d. The flop comes rags with one of his suit and maybe even a 4 to give him bottom pair, crap kicker. He checks. I put in a big bet and everyone else folds. He calls even though he doesn't have pot odds to chase. It drives me nuts when this fish hits.

Ya ya, you want those people to call. Suck it up. It just totally sucks when they hit.

stewartkev

05-13-2005, 02:28 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Scotland

Posts: 99

favourite, colour, programme, etc...it's called English, not American!

Muxy

05-13-2005, 02:48 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Yeah english, canada uses it aswell

colour
neighbour
whour...jk

The_Cheat

05-13-2005, 03:05 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Takin yo' scratch

Posts: 173

canada is teh suck

Don't Hate the Playa, Hate the Cheat

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

The english prefer tea and crumpets. Americans prefer to kick your ass.

-'rilla

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 03:08 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,107

I hate when players min bet, min bet, then shove in a huge bet on the river. I never know what to put these players on - is it a weird slowplay? Did he just hit something good on the last card? Is it a bluff?

bunthorne

05-13-2005, 03:19 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Usually, I find that this means that the player has the nut hand on the river, or he has hit top pair and thinks it is good. If he has the nut hand after the flop, then he's playing a dangerous game by placing the minimum bet and will come unstuck sooner or later when someone hits a bigger hand by drawing out cheaply.

Yes, they are frustrating and it is difficult to put them on a hand, but these players don't usually win tournaments. And I find that they don't usually bluff.

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 03:30 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Thanks for the insight. I rarely see these players show down because I'm not the idiot calling that last huge bet. (Luckily or unluckily for me, I'm usually in the hand with a modest draw that misses, so there's no reason to call.)

ZenOffsuit

05-13-2005, 03:40 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Reading, ma

Posts: 293

This annoys the hell out of me in nlhe:

Blinds are small to medium in size, 5 or 6 people limp and then c/o, button, SB or BB bumps it up one unit....

WHY?! what in god's name are you trying to accomplish?!

Usually these clowns are all excited about A/x suited or are trying to builed a massive pot for their Aces.....which usually get cracked

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprayed

When are you going to write the ultimate johnny_fish strategy manual? I'm tired of seeing your wins and then cleaning my shorts.

EasyT

05-13-2005, 03:50 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Yo Mamma

Posts: 834

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Uhhhhhh, have we played?

Sorry, I am THAT guy.

It usually means I flopped the top end of a straight or a boat. If I check it and it checks around, I've learned nothing. If there was no pre-flop raiser, I'll minimum bet to see who folds, calls, or raises. It also makes the pot a tiny bit bigger. If I only get callers, I might even minimum bet on the turn. People will raise me with middle pair just because minimum betting is annoying.

If there was a pre-flop raiser, I'm either betting into him or check raising his ass.

I'll take some advice on this play though.

drmcboy

05-13-2005, 04:13 PM

#14 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,602

1) So when opp has the mortal humiliating nuts I lose my stack. Don't we all.

1a) players min bet, min bet, then shove in a huge bet on the river.

Generally I hate both plays for the same reason, it strikes me as awful overall strategy, but may cause me to go broke on this specific hand.

In case 1, I'm often betting my draw and by not re raising they are giving me free cards to beat there TP/ two pair / set.

Case 2... I usually find these hosers are betting draws (but in comparison to me above, giving themselves no chance to win the pot unless they hit) or top pair with awful kicker and letting everyone and their mother draw at the huge pot they are building... except the one time I re raise them and them move in - Easy T that must be you!

'It usually means I flopped the top end of a straight or a boat.'

Especially with multiple opps in the pot, this probably makes sense with the nuts.

The other day I was in a three way pot with two early limpers who called my 4x - I held QQ. flop K45 with two diamond. Limper one min bets, limper two re raises - min again! So I make about a 3/4 PS re raise... limper one calls, limper two moves in. I think for a while and lay down, the other guy (who made the original min bet) calls.

Min bet 1 held A3 suited for the nut draw, min raiser 45o!

Xanadu

05-13-2005, 04:20 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Blinds are small to medium in size, 5 or 6 people limp and then c/o, button, SB or BB bumps it up one unit....

WHY?! what in god's name are you trying to accomplish?!

Actually I have started using this play on some loose passive tables. I've found it works nice with a table where many will limp, but most will fold to a 3BB raise. Another aspect of the table I want to see to use this is lots of folding to pot size bets on the flop. The idea is to use it on drawing hands to get the pot up so that when you hit the flop you'll keep more people in. I'll use it on Kx and Ax suited, suited connectors and suited one-gappers, and any pair. It has seemed to help some on this exact type of table. After all, if you arent getting paid off on your monsters, you gotta find a way or find a new table.

Another instance in which this is a useful play is at a table with several people who won't raise preflop with a premium hand unless someone else raises first. In this case I use the min-raise for information with good or better starting hands. If I have AQo, I want him to give away that he has AA, KK, QQ, or AK. Otherwise, it's hard to know where you are at on the flop.

Obviously these tactics only work at crappy low limit tables. But when people use stupid strategies, sometimes it takes a stupid strategy to beat it!!

SmackinYaUp

05-13-2005, 05:08 PM

#16 (permalink)

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I hate when people bet small into a huge pot, I re-raise them to the size of the pot, and then they push all in.

I also hate calling a preflop raise, flopping two-pair and then calling Mr AA's allin flop bet only to have the board pair. And yes that is a play. Its a play by those people out there who run poker sites' luck management department and think its funny to screw me. I know they are out to get me. Ill kill em all.

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 05:24 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyT

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Nope, that makes perfect sense. Thanks. I don't know if they're all playing this way though. I think some people are habitual min-bettors; they don't have any idea where they stand in the hand, they caught some small part of the board, and they're taking the path of least resistance. A check opens you up to aggression, but a min-bet invites everyone to just call, call, call. I can understand playing the mortal nuts this way, but I don't get the people who play basically every hand this way. Occasionally I'll bump into one like this:

me: Jc Tc

flop: 6c 2c 9h
Opp1 min-bets, three people call including me.

turn: 8s
Opp1 min-bets, I now raise twice that amount with my double draw just to juice the pot. Everyone flat calls.

river: Ac
Opp1 bets twice the size of the (now decent-sized) pot, everyone folds to me, I raise him all-in and he calls. Flips over: pocket kings.

That kind of thing is baffling.

Hogimacaca

05-13-2005, 05:29 PM

#18 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Nacogdoches

Posts: 58

i will have to agree with the min bet crap, then huge overbet

and AK s00ted or not uniproved always breaks my bluffs/legit hands
--ill call a raise with aq suited and the flop will come queen high
--ill throw out about a potsize bet and the idiot will call wih no pair/high card
--draw(?) and hit his freakin king on the turn

Hoe-g-muh-ca-ca

Rondavu

05-16-2005, 08:01 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,053

These are my two least favorite plays....

1. I raise AK with 4 limpers before me seeking isolation, and some guy with a very healthy stack and no reason for a desperation move goes all in with 44 or QJo. Your stack is high enough to severly cripple him. You can't call him because you fear AA or KK and it would eliminate you, but you sure want to introduce the guys head to friendly blunt objects.

2. People who limp KK and AA with 4 or more people in hand. I can see it with 2 or 3, but when your in a five handed limp pot, the last thing you expect is some jerk limping AA and dangerously risking a suckout to be cute. When are people going to learn about leveraging high pocket pairs with isolation? I've been cleaned out a couple times on this, but I've seen them get beat even more. It just sucks being on the ground when that hammer peeks out of the dark.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

sejje

05-17-2005, 03:32 AM

#20 (permalink)

Full House

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

It just sucks being on the ground when that hammer peeks out of the dark.

What a great quote.

Staple Gun

05-17-2005, 09:20 PM

#21 (permalink)

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I hate when you flop a set with a rainbow board, and no draw so you slowplay, turn comes second spade or draw to straight. You get raised and reraise about half your stack and get called. The river brings the scare flush/straight card and your opponet goes all-in. Are they just repping it or did they call with terrible odds and hit?

ChezJ

05-17-2005, 09:27 PM

#22 (permalink)

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ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

i hate it when a guy limps in, flops a gutshot, calls or cold calls a raise, then suddenly raises on the turn out of nowhere, and hits his miracle 4-outer (or 3-outer) on the river. that just enrages me.

ChezJ

05-17-2005, 09:29 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

2. People who limp KK and AA with 4 or more people in hand. I can see it with 2 or 3, but when your in a five handed limp pot, the last thing you expect is some jerk limping AA and dangerously risking a suckout to be cute. When are people going to learn about leveraging high pocket pairs with isolation? I've been cleaned out a couple times on this, but I've seen them get beat even more. It just sucks being on the ground when that hammer peeks out of the dark.

oh so you would prefer it if your opponents played smarter against you. yeah i hate this too... not.

Element187

05-17-2005, 10:09 PM

#24 (permalink)

Full House

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Limit Holdem.

Raise UTG with AK .. get 1 caller.

flop comes 4 2 T rainbow.

i bet, i get called. turn comes 8, still no real cordination, i bet, i am called.

river comes K

i bet, i get reraised, i call, villian flips over K4o

but this is supposed to be my profit, so im not supposed to complain.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

bunthorne

05-18-2005, 06:17 AM

#25 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Re 1:
I understand where you are coming from, but in that situation I would probably go all in with AK, especially if suited. If he has KK you can still outdraw him, and even with AA you might hit a straight or a flush, alveit somewhat luckily. It's one of those situations where, if he has the monster, you've just got to lose your chips, but the chances are you are ahead pre-flop or are a 6/5 dog at worst.

Re 2:
Yes, it's frustrating losing to someone who plays AA or KK like that, but more often than not they will be outdrawn, often by a lowly two pair (someone playing 65s, say). Of course it is the wrong play and they will have difficulty releasing the hand when someone hits. Limping with KK is suicidal, as if an A flops, they are in big trouble. But often they won't let it go and so if you are holding an A you will get paid.

bunthorne

05-18-2005, 06:20 AM

#26 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Element187

Yeah, this is frustrating and illustrates the problem with limit poker - you can't get some players out of the pot who are holding weak or marginal hands. In the long run it works in your favour, but in the short run it can bloody hurt!

bunthorne

05-18-2005, 06:28 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

This type of situation sometimes produces a dilemma. It is a classic slow play situation, the hidden set, and when it comes off you can get paid by someone with two pair or TPTK. Conversely, slow playing the set can be dangerous as it allows an opponent a cheap crack at a draw. I guess you have to make a decision based on your position, stack size in relation to the other players, and what you know of your opponent. If you are really worried, it is better to bet your set - better to pick up a small pot than lose a big one!

Some players have no idea of hand value and cannot consider your cards. They have a couple of small suited cards and dream the word "flush". When they hit, they might win, unless up against a bigger flush. make them pay to play their draws.

bunthorne

05-18-2005, 06:32 AM

#28 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

Yeah, this is annoying. Once again, a player who has no concept of hand value and pot odds.

Still, they might get away with it once or twice, but in the long run it will costy them too much and the pots they win will not be large enough.

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