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Leaks in my game...

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thirteen

09-23-2005, 06:04 PM Post subject: Leaks in my game...

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 235

I'm posting this mostly as a form 'therapy' where I'm hoping that by verbalizing my known leaks I'll consciously recognize them when they happen. As always feedback and discussion is appreciated.

1) Expecting that a loose player is always playing mediocre cards...

Example... I raise pre flop when a loose player has already limped in, this player calls my raise as expected. He then bets out on the flop as expected. I've hit Top pair with a good kicker... I raise strong. He comes over the top of my raise with an all-in when I expected a fold. I figure he's still just playing his loose game, I call and go broke to his better hand.

Even LAG players get cards. I manage to find myself in this situation a lot where I don't give appropriate credit knowing the person is generally loose. I always suspect mediocre hands and misinterpret some larger bets as trying to bully me rather than reading deviations from his standard play (such as a large reraise) as strength.

2) Chasing with the second best hand.

I'm still prone to chasing some draws with marginal hands that I know are second best at the time(like middle or bottom pair). Mostly do this in cash games, but its a leak none the less.

3) Not using position to its full advantage.

I should play some more marginal hands from good position as well as bully a bit from these spots when detecting weakness.

4) Losing more money than i should with marginal hands.

Things such as thinking top pair good kicker is good when its not. Falling in love with that KQ suited in early position with a raise behind me.

Any decent poker player can make some money with good hands. Great players minimize losses with marginal ones.

5)Deciding when to limp and when to raise when I have a decent hand.

88 middle position... two limpers in front of me. Do I raise this here? I think there is a 50% - 60% chance of overcards coming on the flop. Should I limp in and play it for set value only?

6) Raising an amount pre flop that is tailored to my hand rather than position or opponents.

I think i've since plugged this whole, but early on I would raise bigger with hands like JJ, TT and 99 hoping to discourage action. And i'd raise smaller with AA, KK and QQ hoping to encourage action. Opponents catch on to this and you'll lose money.

I've since decided on a strategy where after a few minutes at the table(cash game) I'll decide what size preflop raise is most effective givin the people at my table and any time I decide to raise preflop I'll raise the same amount. Its worked well and people won't be as likely to put me on a range of hands.

In SnG's this depends on the blinds, the opponents left and my position so I play preflop accordingly.

There's probably more but thats all I'm posting for now.

Feedback and insight appreciated

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satan1974

09-23-2005, 06:18 PM Post subject: Re: Leaks in my game...

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

6) Raising an amount pre flop that is tailored to my hand rather than position or opponents.

I think i've since plugged this whole, but early on I would raise bigger with hands like JJ, TT and 99 hoping to discourage action. And i'd raise smaller with AA, KK and QQ hoping to encourage action. Opponents catch on to this and you'll lose money.

Having just finished reading Harrington volume 1 for the 3rd time, he recommends that you should indeed bet more with JJ/TT than with AA/KK/QQ - because you want to encourage less action, and get a better read on what hands your opponent has. With AA/KK, you want to encourage action and not discourage it.

AA with 5 people in the pot is nice.
JJ with 2 people in the pot is nice.

Reverse these hands/numbers, and it's not so nice.

What do others think?

thirteen

09-23-2005, 06:55 PM Post subject: Re: Leaks in my game...

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 235

Quote:

Originally Posted by satan1974

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

I also read HoH 1 (only once) and saw this in there, however I have found that by doing so I end up tipping off my opponents. Especially in SnG's where you'll sit with the same people for over an hour.

Irisheyes

09-23-2005, 07:32 PM Post subject: Re: Leaks in my game...

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

Quote:

Originally Posted by satan1974

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

I also read HOH 1 (only once) and saw this in there, however I have found that by doing so I end up tipping off my opponents. Especially in SnG's where you'll sit with the same people for over an hour.

How many times are you gonna get dealt JJ/TT in an hour? Not many.

thirteen

09-23-2005, 08:07 PM Post subject: Re: Leaks in my game...

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 235

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

How many times are you gonna get dealt JJ/TT in an hour? Not many.

I apologize, I may have listed some very specific examples, but my basic problem was that I would raise larger with more marginal hands and raise smaller with stronger ones. Opponents would get a read on me and before I was able to adjust and I took some beats.

Additionally I found myself playing 4 SnG's over the course of a few hours in which I'd come across some of the same people from the previous SnG's.

BrokeSucca

09-23-2005, 10:56 PM Post subject: Re: Leaks in my game...

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Phoenix, AZ USA

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Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

How many times are you gonna get dealt JJ/TT in an hour? Not many.

In the Pro Lessons section of the Fulltilt site there is one in there by Jesus about tailoring your raises to your position and not your cards.

"Good is the enemy of great." - Some smart guy.

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JeffreyGB

09-24-2005, 12:13 AM Post subject: Re: Leaks in my game...

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by satan1974

Quote:

Originally Posted by thirteen

I'd rather not have 5 people in the pot with AA if I could avoid it. If my raises aren't narrowing the field well enough for that, I start raising more. With any hand I raise at.

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Check out strategy videos at GrinderSchool.com, from $10 / month.

DaNutsInYoEye

09-24-2005, 12:30 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

AA with 5 people in the pot is nice.

Jeffery is right. Five people is just too damn many.

How much do you raise with AA or KK? Don't think of it as 3x BB or 4x BB. You want to raise as much you can, but still get a person to call. This obviously depends on the situation (players at the table, stage in the tournament, etc.). You err on the side of betting a little less because you don't mind action.

With 10,10 JJ and QQ you again bet as much as you can so you don't get more than one caller. With these hands hands you err on betting too much because they are vulnerable and you don't mind everyone folding.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

Xanadu

09-24-2005, 10:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

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Harrington recommends you bet more with hands like JJ and TT, and less with QQ-AA, but he also reccommends you vary your bets. You might raise the same range with both sets of hands, say 2-5xBB, but with the QQ-AA you bet more often 2x or 3x, and with JJ,TT, you bet more often 4x and 5x. He says he uses the second hand of his watch to decide what he bets. For example, for JJ,TT, you might bet ...
1-24 (40%)- 5xBB
25-42(30%)- 4xBB
43-54(20%)- 3xBB
55-60(10%)- 2xBB

For the QQ-AA, you would reverse it, betting 5x only 10% and 2x 40%. Using this distribution, you would average betting 4xBB with the JJ,TT, and 3xBB with QQ-AA. Even if someone knew what you were doing, they couldn't put you on a hand with great accuracy.

I am curious about AA. Many of you don't like having a lot of opponents with AA. I play mostly limit, and know that you will make more money with AA the more people are in the pot. More action is always better. Does anyone know if this holds true in NL, or is there some dynamic in NL where more often only hands that will beat you will call down in many cases, making there an ideal # of opponents for AA that is not 'as many as possible' as it is in limit?

jukejointroach

09-25-2005, 03:33 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 131

i was just gonna mention the watch thing. it's a random number generator on your wrist. use the second hand. raise 80% and call 20% with your big pairs? 1-48 is raise 49-60 call. simple.

now if only that timex could keep my opponents from drawing out with JT.

bigredhoss

09-25-2005, 04:59 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

Quote:

AA with 5 people in the pot is nice.

With 10,10 JJ and QQ you again bet as much as you can so you don't get more than one caller. With these hands hands you err on betting too much because they are vulnerable and you don't mind everyone folding.

i almost always limp TT/JJ for set value

TLR

09-25-2005, 01:15 PM

#12 (permalink)

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TLR is an unknown quantity at this point

Back to your original post

Knowing is 1/2 the battle, so if you recognize the leaks you will be able to fix them.

Out of this list I consider leaks 2 & 4 to be the most important ones to fix (actually they are the same leak)

Irisheyes

09-25-2005, 05:43 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanadu

Harrington varies his raises like this because he is regularly playing against pros who like he says in HOH1 keep books of notes on their opponents playing styles and spend hours learning them off. I play low buy-in tournaments against recreational players who for the most part, I believe, dont have any thought on what hand I may have and are not paying attention. My situation (ant probably yours) ain't the same as harringtons therefore I raise the most +EVish ammount every time with no variation, because its +EV.

biondino

09-26-2005, 12:42 PM

#14 (permalink)

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I like mixing up my raises as it means I can raise more with JJ at times and not at others and any non-pro is unlikely to be able to figure out what I'm doing.

It's like bluffing - if I am bluffing 1/4 of the time I'm still winning for real the other 3/4 of the time, and anyone perceptive enough to figure out this ratio is going to know that more often than not they'll lose if they try to sherriff me.

Beyond that we're getting too deeply into game theory and that's scary

Miffed22001

09-26-2005, 01:59 PM

#15 (permalink)

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1. The most difficult thing is to show someone like this respect. The thing to be said here is that he limped, called your raise then reraised your raise. Thats a fold to me all day, but i would also say that if this sort of player is bad for your play/game then go elsewhere or crank it up a few gears against him and see how he likes playing against a different style play. But most of all give a player respect when he realy bets like he has the nuts.
2. We all do it sometimes. Just learn to only do it when the odds are there or if you think you can push your opp off his hand with a nicely timed raise.
3. More reading and learning required. But still,you do need cards at times!
4. Oh if we could all do this all of the time. I play 6 max so i can get away with playing more hands in not so great position. In full ring this thoery is blown. If marginal hands keep losing you money then stop raising them (or start raising them!) and check your stats to figure out which hands in which situations are a leak (for me it was playing KQunsuited to raises from later positions) now i raise and ask opp to call my raise knowing that ill hit the flop hard.
5. Chck your odds etc.
6. If you are scared of playing JJ post flop with over cards on the board and you were the initial preflop raiser then dont raise. My arguement is raise standard, bet the flop hard unless its bet into you with overcards on the flop and with any callers either bully or try to check it down.

WhooFleuryScores

09-28-2005, 07:18 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Leaks I recommend everyone watch out for:

1)Playing PP under 10-10 out of position
2)Playing Axs under A9s out of position
3)Cold calling raises with A-10s,PP under 10-10 without proper odds

And of course defending your blind in the wrong situation.

RiverMonkey

09-29-2005, 07:24 PM

#17 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores

re: 1) & 2) ..... I agree that these can be leaks in certain (many/most) situations (i.e. right table and game textures etc.), but I also think it can be too restrictive to adopt hard and fast rules like this without considering the specifics of the situation. Are we talking a tight/loose game, NL or LHE, full ring or short-handed, ring or SNG/MTT? There's too much context left out of the situation to make generalized rules like this useful to most players. I can think of situations where'd I'd have no problem breaking rules 1) & 2).

For example, to say that you should never play 99 UTG is just over-generalizing way too much IMHO. There are certain games conditions (e.g. very tight middle stakes LHE game) where this is an easy, automatic raise situation for me.

Another example, I'll play A7s in early middle position at a very loose passive table where PFRs are rare and 6 or 7 players are routinely seeing the flop. In fact, I'll even play it from UTG at some very loose, passive tables. At a tighter table, in EP, I'm folding hands like this before the flop without a moments hesitation because this is where "you'll win the minimum and lose the most" type arguements have a lot of merit.

Granted, you will put yourself in more marginal situations "laggin' it up" like this. You'll have to adapt and learn to avoid many of the common pitfalls and traps. You have to, as they say, "play well" after the flop. Which might mean flopping a pair of Aces without some additional draws etc. and find the ability to fold your TPWK to signs of aggression from your opponents where you can feel pretty confident that you don't have the outs to continue. (btw, this isn't a playing style that works well in multi-tabling online scenarios, but can be very profitable in some (not all) B&M games).

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