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Thunder
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12-08-2007, 03:43 PM
Post subject: Leak Plugging Required
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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2 problems I have recently identified.
1) Pairs 44 - 88 in any position but especially early and mid.
Call, raise? Bound to get overcards but surely can't pass up a made hand pre flop. I need to drive opponents out - and there's the extra win percentage by raising - but at the same time I am going to be panicking unless I hit a set. Being first to ace on a scary board is not good yet if I am in late position, and a villain c bets, I don't know where I am, Murder, either way.
2) Whenever I have a hand (sub flush) yet see 2 cards of the same suit out, I now find it very hard to trap or even value bet. I suspect this is due to having been run over by a load of last gasp flushes and opponents risking their all to chase them. Option 1 is where I go all in and waste a good hand by taking down a relatively small pot and option 2 is where the numpty calls and scores in the last 2 cards, where he may have folded had I just bet and the turn was a blank.
The same goes for pairs less than aces. When at a table where any ace is played (and at my level that is most games) if I have pockets 10 - K, if the flop is clear, I again push, push, push having been scarred so many times by an ace on the river.
I know these issues demonstrate sub optimum poker and would like some advice please.
Thx
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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whats your PT db say about these, itll tell you much more about how your currently playing with these
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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I don't use PT.
Am just asking for opinion on how to play these.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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FR or 6 max? Also, stakes.
I play FR and raise all PP's from all positions to open (except on unusually difficult tables, that I then leave). I am leading into 2 or less opps on most flops, esp with an ace on board. If it's HU and opp leads into me, I am raising this a lot of the time on ragged flops.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
I don't use PT.
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This may be your biggest leak.
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BigBadBull
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 103
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What stakes are you playng?
Heres how I generally play (highly deends on the table and my mood but you get the point  )
Low pockets- these hands have pretty much one purpose for me- set hunt. So I generally just limp with these and let it go if dont hit the set. Rarely I will raise 99+ but won't cbet with overcards on board.
Subflush on a flushed board- depends on opponent greatly. I will stay the agressor but at the same time bet just the right amount so I won't get raised and minimize the amount put in pot. My first bet might be large(amount that I know anything less then a flush folds to most times). But it so depends, I don't even know if that is the general play I would use...
High pairs (JJ-KK) I'd bet heavy on lower flp. Also Im learning to slow down with KK when A is showing and more then 2 ppl in pot. Just yesterday when I had KK- ep raised to 3xBB(.75), mp calls and I raise to 2$
Both call. Ace flops and ep bets 2, mp raised to 6. What do you do? Yeah you've got KK but you know its a 2nd pair...By not shoving there I saved myself extra 200BB by not everestimating my hand's value. Now in this situation villans' hands are clear as day, but the same goes for other situations. If you get resistance- ask yourself- "would the villan do this move with 2nd pair?" if no then you have a better idea where you stand.
Anyway, those are my plays. Hope this helps
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
I don't use PT.
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This may be your biggest leak. |
I love PT - think you need it. There are several good leak plugging posts using PT stats, here and at other poker forums. I play low-mid PP's passively early, limp/calling, aggressively late coming in for a raise in unraised pots from the cutoff and button (6max NL10 / NL25).
Just for kicks, I opened PT, filtered on the last month, and looked PP's 22 - 77. Overall, on 450 of these hands, I'm 0.31 BB/100 on them, just barely breaking even. For the 72 times I "raised first in," I'm 1.98 BB/100.
Now, my success with raising is positional, too. I used the last month because I used to open all PP's with a raise (in an unopenend pot) from every position, but I was losing money overall with these hands. In the last 6 weeks, I've gotten choosier with my raises. Thank God at NL10 the villains don't notice the obvious "limp/call, flop set, stack y'all" pattern.
I raise 99+ from all positions, and rr with QQ from all positions, rr w/ JJ and TT selectively from LP. In the last month, I've had 596 PP's 99 - AA and am WAY ahead for all of them.
I'm kinda posting this "stream of analysis," hoping to illustrate how i use PT to help analyze my game. It's not necessarily a "leak" to play pgil's way, but for me, against my villains and against the contours of my style, raising PP's less when out of position has been beneficial. And PT can help you identify your best course of action.
I also have a rule for post flop play with ANY pp: value bet ANY flop if there is 1 or fewer overcards against 3 or fewer opponents. With 2 overcards, I'm willing to bet out at 1 opponent or bet behind 2 or 3 checks. Against 3 overcards, I'm done (not counting paired boards, which are a whole different post). It works for me, but of course, there are exceptions.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx for feedback.
My problem has been that at $2 6 and 10 man SNGs, people go all in with anything, often in 4 way battles, and chase draw till the cows come home.
And this goes back to a post I made somewhere on this site about handling such play. As it is, when people bet/raise, it can mean anything and am finding it uncomfortable to hold anything less than a nut flush.
Trapping and betting for value are no nos and you can forget about betting to offer insufficient odds. They call anyway.
Basically, I've been playing the "generally advised" way, as you suggest Robb and with KK, especially with nothing on the board, been trying to rope the dope etc but at this level it's quite easy to busto.
It's at the point where I'm bets off going all in pre flop as raising 3 - 10xbb still gets called by 7 10 who then hits 2 pair.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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On your original question:
1. Mid pocket pairs in EP - I'm assuming you're talking about SNGs here. In SNGs, limp pocket pairs 22-TT when the blinds are low (say level 1 and 2), and call raises if you can win 15x the chips you need to call. From level 3 then tend to fold the lowest pocket pairs (say 22-66) from EP depending on your stack. Just remember that you are playing to flop a set, and if you don't, then generally tend to shut down to action on the flop.
2. Playing a strong hand on a 2-flush board - Say you have TPTK and the board comes 2-flush. BET BET BET! No need to go all-in though - tend to bet 3/4 to full pot - if opps have a flush draw then in general they are drawing against the odds. Just remember that you may need to overbet the pot if you are first to act and there are multiple opps seeing the flop because the odds for each subsequent opp get better with each previous opp that calls.
3. Playing strong overpairs (TT-KK) - Generally tend to bet these hard since opps will call you with hands that you crush. Eg. if you have KK, raised preflop, got 2 callers and the flop comes J93 rainbow, BET BET BET since AJ/KJ/QJ/JT top pairs, QT straight draws and even A9 and A3 will call your bets when they are drawing to 5-8 outs at best.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Trapping and betting for value are no nos and you can forget about betting to offer insufficient odds. They call anyway.
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One thing that David Sklansky said about poker was that it is a game of trading mistakes. Whenever your opps chase draws against the odds they make a mistake and you win. Read that over and over again because it's really really important. You WANT your opponents to chase their draws against the odds because YOU WIN WHEN THEY DO. Sure, when they hit their draws it can be frustrating but you can often shut down if the draw gets there and they give you serious action.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
It's at the point where I'm bets off going all in pre flop as raising 3 - 10xbb still gets called by 7 10 who then hits 2 pair.
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Don't you see the point that they are making a mistake and losing money to you by calling your preflop raises with T7 since they're only 2.2% to hit two pair on the flop?
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by "taipan168"Mid pocket pairs in EP[/b
- I'm assuming you're talking about SNGs here. In SNGs, limp pocket pairs 22-TT when the blinds are low (say level 1 and 2), and call raises if you can win 15x the chips you need to call.
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I forgot to ask, what is the relevance of 15x chips?
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
Quote:
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Originally Posted by taipan168
Mid pocket pairs in EP[/b] - I'm assuming you're talking about SNGs here. In SNGs, limp pocket pairs 22-TT when the blinds are low (say level 1 and 2), and call raises if you can win 15x the chips you need to call.
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I forgot to ask, what is the relevance of 15x chips? |
I did a detailed explanation of this somewhere but I can't find it, I should have made a note of where it was, bugger.
A better way of describing the "15x rule" for calling raises with small to medium pocket pairs is that if you can win less than 10 times the chips you need to call, you should generally fold, but if you can win more than 20 times the chips you need to call, you should generally call. In between it's a judgement call but generally speaking I tend to call provided I can win at least ~15 times the chips I need to call.
Where this comes from is that you hit a set on the flop with a pocket pair about 11.8% of the time or 1 time in 7.5. Assuming the opp whose raise you are calling stacks off every single time you hit a set on the flop then you would break even if you could win 7.5 times the chips you need to call. However, opps won't stack off every time so you need a bit more. Against a terrible and/or aggressive player, you can call a bigger raise because they will stack off with crap like middle pair, against a better and/or more passive player you can't call such a big raise because they won't stack off as often.
Hope that makes sense.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thunder
I forgot to ask, what is the relevance of 15x chips?
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=273313#273313
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