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bef99hwk
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05-07-2007, 02:36 AM
Post subject: Leading out flops
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Manhattan, KS
Posts: 107
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I know it depends on reads and such, but lets say the villain raises and you call with pocket 5's on the button....flop comes 9-3-2. Is it better to lead out flops like this and then see if you get raised, or is it better to check call the flop and reevaluate the turn? I check/called and he hit the k of his kj so it got me thinking. I am playing donkament 50nl and 25nl.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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{moved from NLHE HH's}
I'm confused, you're on the button but you check/call? Do you have position or not?
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bef99hwk
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Manhattan, KS
Posts: 107
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Sorry didnt' mean to say button...lets say you are in the small blind and he is in BB...remember, I am talking about donk level.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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on boards like this wher opponent tends to c-bet regardless i c/c donk turn for 1/2 2/3rds.
While i use it as a defensive line in small stakes games primarily in mid stakes games its more a line looking to c/r the river versus players who will bet for value lots.
In small stakes im 80/20 in defensive mode with that line but much more 40/60 in defensive mode in 200nl...
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Ok, you're oop with 55 vs. a preflop raiser and the flop comes 932 rainbow. I generally prefer to lead b/c you might have the best hand but there are lots of turn cards that can come to put you behind or let your opp bluff. If opp is a habitual c-bettor you could c/r if you're feeling frisky, or c/c if you think he's the type to give up on the turn. And honestly, there's nothing wrong with c/f'ing, b/c against bad players it should be +ev to play 55 just for set value, even oop.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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yeah, i think zook points out 55 is a bit weak if we assume an lp raisor may come in with medium pps. Id probably lead with 77+ as it showsdown well versus villains range whereas 55 doesnt so much.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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haha, said I moved this but I didn't, now I did
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
If opp is a habitual c-bettor you could c/r if you're feeling frisky, or c/c if you think he's the type to give up on the turn.
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OOP you wont know if hes giving up the turn until you get to the river so youre giving 2 free cards.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
If opp is a habitual c-bettor you could c/r if you're feeling frisky, or c/c if you think he's the type to give up on the turn.
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OOP you wont know if hes giving up the turn until you get to the river so youre giving 2 free cards. |
If he's one to give up on the turn, I like leading it.
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bef99hwk
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Manhattan, KS
Posts: 107
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I told myself I prolly had the best hand on the flop so I called and he bet on the turn again and I still didn't believe him when a low card came again and then a K came on the river and low and behold, he had KJ and caught the river.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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you can lead out in your example for a strong bet like 3/4 of the pot. However, you will get bluff raised a lot, so you need to balance this lead by also doing with with sets and overpairs.
I dont really like donkbetting too much because it causes people to play back at me more than i want, so generally i check/raise or check/call and lead the turn. I donkbet a little, but probably not as much as most aggressive players. You can do it, its just that if you don't balance yourself properly you're gonna give a lot up.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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I hate the check call lead turn line. It lets every worse hand get away on a drawless board and will allow almost 100% success rate on bluff raising you on the turn with air.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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well you gotta checkcall and lead with good hands too
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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you can implement almost any aggressive play successfully into your game so long as you balance well
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
I hate the check call lead turn line. It lets every worse hand get away on a drawless board and will allow almost 100% success rate on bluff raising you on the turn with air.
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So you c/c c/c and c/f the river or?
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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I don't think it matters much against an unknown. Generally, you want to lead against someone who calls/folds too much and check/call against someone who bets/raises too much. It's probably a good spot to randomize.
If the turn is blank, I think you should probably lead either way. If it's big card, I am less likely to fire again.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Sorry, whats a Donkbet?
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Just playing to improve.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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it is when you make a bet that breaks the flow of aggression in the hand. An example would be if someone raises preflop and you call out of position. The normal flow would dictate that you check to him and let him bet on the flop, but betting out before he has the chance to bet is donkbetting. Also if you raise preflop, get called from someone in position, bet the flop, get raised, call the raise, and then bet again on the turn, thats also a donkbet, because the natural play would be to check the turn to him.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Thanks.
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Just playing to improve.
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ShaunHunting
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 3
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Thanks for the explanation, Renton. I didn't know what a donkbet was either.
bef99hwk, I also struggle a lot with this situation, and I play the same limit as you do.
I usually donkbet because I like to play it the same way when I flop a set or two pair. I do get raised a lot, though. And I'm forced to lay down a lot of hands, but I find it helps to build pots when I do hit.
Do you use a HUD? I usually won't make that play if the villian's pfr% is <4.
cheers
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