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Galapogos
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02-21-2007, 03:00 AM
Post subject: Lay down KK preflop?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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I know I've advocated this before but here is a situation where I would like to know what you guys think.
Say some unknown just sat at the table a few hands ago, buys in full. You just witnessed a hand where he didn't raise preflop. It's between him and some other guy he has position on. Checks all the way to the river which is a Q. Board is not scary, check, check again. New guy shows AQ. Weird.
Okay, next hand you are in SB with KK, this new guy raises (!!!) Everyone folds to you and you reraise. He pushes. Do you call?
Keep in mind he has been at the table for maybe 5 hands and you have only witnessed this one. Do you figure maybe he was just being tricky or a super tight nit?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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I could fold here, but I'd feel really dirty about it.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Serisously what is with all the fold KK pf stuff around the forums lately?
I am never ever folding KK pf.
Never.
I don't care if the guy is a 5/1/1 over 10k hands.
Flame away....
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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I'm with bigspenda here. Maybe it comes from being an SNG player, but I can't ever imagine myself folding KK preflop. If opp has AA then I pay him.
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NLHE lahooozaher
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 916
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Serisously what is with all the fold KK pf stuff around the forums lately?
I am never ever folding KK pf.
Never.
I don't care if the guy is a 5/1/1 over 10k hands.
Flame away....
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You don't win as much as you could.
/a not so hot flame
Quote:
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I could fold here, but I'd feel really dirty about it.
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I've folded KK 5 times preflop and of those 5 the worst was folding to the unknown. It's the only time I've regretted doing so. Of the other 4 times, once somebody had KK, twice somebody had AA, and once somebody didn't show but it had to be aces.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by taipan168
If opp has AA then I suckout.
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Sykedupp
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02-21-2007, 08:51 AM
Post subject: Re: Lay down KK preflop?
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#7 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Lay down KK preflop?
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No.
-Chris
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
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Kits
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 129
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I don't think so.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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whats his position
you don't know enough. Insta call and be good a massive % of the time.
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,815
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Id been thinking about this a lot recently:
You have KK in late position or blinds and EP raises. You reraise 3 times his raise and he reraises to 3 times your bet. Do you shove or call? and how do you play the flop? Or do you lay it down?
Having got burned shoving a couple of times I decided to call and that just left me facing the obvious flop shove with a missed K. So I was unsure what to do.
Then, for some reason, while 4 tabling last night, the situation kept happening with other people at my tables and QQvsJJ, QQvsAK, QQvsKK and similar all being shown convinced me that at my buyin level, folding it cannot be correct. (Not unless I guess you have like 10k+ hands with a guy and have seen him flat call repops with JJ-KK and only ever rereraise with AA)
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This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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lately, i have been in some wierd spots with hands i usually drop to big pf action. hands like AK, QQ, AQ. most of these i will call 3bets with pf, instead of push over, but lately...
i would have been wrong to play so passively. i will 3bet some of these to see if villain pushes, if he does, i may fold (with a better idea that KK/AA are about it for a 4bet), but again, i am often still wrong. you need a SOLID read on someone before you lay down KK pf. and 5 hands does not get you a solid read.
i have lately seen TT, AJ, and 66 all push pf, and have called the TT w/ KK when i was seriously thinking of laying it down.
what a mistake that would have been, huh?
DONT LAY IT DOWN UNLESS YOU ARE 110% SURE ITS AA!! IF YOU ARE ONLY 100% SURE...CALL.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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I've laid it down preflop twice in my 1.5 years of playing poker, both times I had played with the villain enough to know without a shred of doubt that he had KK+. In this situation there isn't enough information to be certain, so I call.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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i never laid down KK in 14 months, but were in situations where i wished i could.
i´ve been thinking about this recently. at 25nl 6m im confronted with players with an incredible wide calling range, but therefore a super-nitty raising range. when im 4 tabling i have at least two tables running, where im the only one 3betting more than AA/KK.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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call
not close
hes a relative unknown.
100bbs deeps its pretty much not a decision either without exceptional circumstances.
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Silly String
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02-21-2007, 04:57 PM
Post subject: Re: Lay down KK preflop?
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#15 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Okay, next hand you are in SB with KK, this new guy raises (!!!) Everyone folds to you and you reraise. He pushes. Do you call?
. . .
Do you figure maybe he was just being tricky or a super tight nit?
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I call the push everytime. This villain obviously does not know how to play poker so I call.
Also it would be more likely that he would slow plays his monsters.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Yea, this seems more like a hand he doesn't want to have to play postflop. Maybe JJ.
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Phantaroth
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 505
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How about this... if you think there is a big enough chance they have AA to consider folding, it is most likely very minimal... so if you just call and push the flop does whatever chance he folds to a random flop push make it +EV, or does it make it even worse because your giving lesser hands greater value so the probability of him having AA doesn't even matter?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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I think we should ban folding KK preflop as a thread subject.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Only time I mucked KK was when I raised UTG and three players pushed after me. I was against AA, QQ and 88, although two more pushes and it wouldve been a good call.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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He was in MP.
I called and he had AA (of course why else would I make this thread?)
The thing is, on Pokerroom no one reraises with less than KK. I'm always saying folding KK preflop can be done but I don't actually do it. The only times I find I am up against less than KK is a couple known regulars. That's it. The site is either very loose call stations or very nitty TAGs.
Maybe folding sounds dumb because everyone is so aggro on all the other sites you guys play on.
And yeah I know we're sick of these folding KK preflop threads but I've won 2 all-ins preflop with it without a suckout ever on Pokerroom (excluding 25bbs player all-ins) That situation loses me money plain and simple.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Is this fullring? Because the last time I played at 5max at ongame, the games were nuts and filled with maniacs [not even semi-decent lags, just asolute maniacs].
Ive folded KK once and it was a 3 way pot where the effective stack was 200bb+ and the action was incredibly fucked up and I had substantial stats on all players involved. There have been a few other times where I have been convinced I should fold but cant bring myself to do it with only 100BBs. I know Ive typed "show me AA" in chat and then seen something random before, but yea, a good portion of the time they still have AA; however, the times they dont have AA and the times you suckout should make up for this [i suck at the math side of things so i wont try to do any ev calcs]. Factor in the tilt from folding KK to see somebody show a bluff or JJ and I dont think I would do it without that rock solid read. Also, the more aggressive I have become [specifically how people react to me] and the games themselves have become, the less I have run into situations where I have to think about folding KK PF [now I have those decisions with AK]. Quite simply, people have wider ranges than KK+ in spots like these at small to mid stakes. At the micros it becomes more of a question, but against an unknown you cant assume they are tight or have any idea what they are doing. Against a regular nit, yea, it becomes more of a question, but against an unknown micro player, call.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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If you are going to fold kk preflop, at least do it like this.
Note: stakes AND stack sizes.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...361&highlight=
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
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I call that in a heartbeat. What happened to the post you _just_ made:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
in games less than 400nl folding Kk preflop with 100bbs stacks is wrong, unless the circumstances are exceptional.
Ive seen about 2 spots on ftr where id fod kk preflop, otherwise i wouldnt. Ive done it once fwiw, and i doubt ill do it again for a long time.
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No reads or stats were posted. This was at 50nl with just slightly more than 100BB, I guess I just dont get that at all.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
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I call that in a heartbeat. What happened to the post you _just_ made:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
in games less than 400nl folding Kk preflop with 100bbs stacks is wrong, unless the circumstances are exceptional.
Ive seen about 2 spots on ftr where id fod kk preflop, otherwise i wouldnt. Ive done it once fwiw, and i doubt ill do it again for a long time.
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No reads or stats were posted. This was at 50nl with just slightly more than 100BB, I guess I just dont get that at all. |
he open pushed 200bbs, you think hes kidding?
And trust me when i say its the only time so far ive even considered folding KK preflop.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
he open pushed 200bbs, you think hes kidding?
And trust me when i say its the only time so far ive even considered folding KK preflop.
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Well, really he only pushed 150bb effective.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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c'mon renton, people dont go throwing around 200bbs stacks without the goods despite the fact effective stacks for me are 100bbs. Ap is hardly full of fishy 200bbs buy ins either...
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Lukie
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02-24-2007, 04:39 AM
Post subject: Re: Lay down KK preflop?
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#27 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I know I've advocated this before but here is a situation where I would like to know what you guys think.
Say some unknown just sat at the table a few hands ago, buys in full. You just witnessed a hand where he didn't raise preflop. It's between him and some other guy he has position on. Checks all the way to the river which is a Q. Board is not scary, check, check again. New guy shows AQ. Weird.
Okay, next hand you are in SB with KK, this new guy raises (!!!) Everyone folds to you and you reraise. He pushes. Do you call?
Keep in mind he has been at the table for maybe 5 hands and you have only witnessed this one. Do you figure maybe he was just being tricky or a super tight nit?
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trivially easy call
fwiw, I'm not in the 'never fold KK' crowd, although I honestly can't remember the last time I folded KK pre but that's in a tough, aggressive shorthanded game where people have a clue and don't need AA or KK to go all-in before the flop.
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