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gingerwizard
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05-16-2007, 08:17 PM
Post subject: KQ, AJ, KJ tough hands?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,815
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I guess I just don't know how to play these hands right. So if folded to in LP I usually raise and have no problem with that, but in other situations I do.
E.g. FR
1. You are in Early position with one of these (UTG-MP1 say), fold call or raise?
2. You are late position facing a raise before you, fold call or raise?
If you do answer this could you then follow up with my main question which is: How do I then play this post flop (especially following the raise)
Say I call a 3xBB raise with KJ on the button, what sort of flops do I like even?
I know these hands have value, I just find them difficult to play unless I was the agressor and have position.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
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fold and fold in FR OOP unless suited and multi-way.
2. you could concievable raise then occasionally if the original raiser was raising light
Obviously, you can limp or open-raise with them to mix it up. If the table was very loose and fishy I might see some flops with them on the button for cheap.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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I have to know a player pretty well to call with KJ, button or no.
In general though, with these hands I'd be looking to test opponents if they show weakness (basically just playing the position) and probably use position to exercise pot control to get to a show down if I thought they thought they were betting for value in spots I might be ahead.
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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I see what you mean. You're worried about being possibly domnated, by AQ and AK and are worried that a Qxx or Kxx flop is going to sink you. In position (case 2), I think you can afford to call raises with these in position generally, as you'll get more info. AQ and AK usually play pretty agressively OOP, so I think you'll be able to get a good read while ahead. Limping / playing these OOP preflop might be spew, I don't know. Of course it all depends on the table.
I think these ace-paint hands are trying to flop big pairs. You're looking for Kxx, Qxx, Axx, Jxx. or JTx (KQ), QTx (KJ) for oesd's, but I take it you already figured that out. The stakes are also essential in determining play.
At the donkstake penny-tables I'm playing these in and out of position all day every day.
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Im at around 50NL at the moment. Usually ok preflop and post flop but noticed that many of my tougher spots are with KJ, KQ type hands. I much prefer hands I know where I am with like T9 (in position obv, im not a total spew whore!)
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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KJ is always a fold preflop in a raised pot unless it goes multiway and then you probably need it to be sooted and your not playing for tp!
KQ and AJ are raises for me in FR but then im happy getting away from them postflop and i have no intention of calling a reraise with them.
If were first into the pot, you have to open with these hands IMO. If we arent then they are auto muck's unless the pot is multiway and they are sooted, but we need to remember why we play them.
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
KJ is always a fold preflop in a raised pot unless it goes multiway and then you probably need it to be sooted and your not playing for tp!
KQ and AJ are raises for me in FR but then im happy getting away from them postflop and i have no intention of calling a reraise with them.
If were first into the pot, you have to open with these hands IMO. If we arent then they are auto muck's unless the pot is multiway and they are sooted, but we need to remember why we play them.
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Thats really helpful cheers.
1 more thing. Opening with them: does this include UTG, even with KJo? Seems tight to fold, weak to call and dangerous to raise since we will be OOP in a raised pot with a vunerable hand.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
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KJ is JUNK UTG. I limp it sooted UTG but dump it quickly. I dump ii in EP and MP unsooted.
I open raise with AJ and KQ but am as careful as possible postflop. I sometimes reraise with them in LP to change up. Calling raises with them is suicide unless it's multiway and then you have to flop at least two pair or strong draw to continue IMO....and a lot of times your two pair brings the opp a draw as well....
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LordVTR
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
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cardsman1992 wrote:
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and a lot of times your two pair brings the opp a draw as well....
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QFT.
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Lord VTR
Grant me the strength to accept the things I cant change, the courage to change the things I can........and the wisdom to know the difference.
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djzcko
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 285
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Funny you post this...I was just looking over my PT stats and saw that AJ, KT and KJ were my worst hands. AJ is on my list because I made one huge bluff with it that would have worked except villain hit his gutshot on the river. Go figure. However, I do have a tendency to overplay KT and KJ and have paid the price for that. Going forward, I will still continue to raise these hands in MP and LP, but will give up instead of continuing to push marginal hands. I play 6 max $50nl if that makes any difference.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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AJ & KQ - open raise from all positions, only call a raise if they're suited and I'm in position - occasionally 3-bet vs. players with high pfr%
KJo - open raise from LP, never call a raise
KJs - open raise from MP & LP, sometimes call a raise in position
One note... I make exceptions vs. bad players who raise a lot pre-flop and spew post-flop, and will call with all of these hands in position more frequently.
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
AJ & KQ - open raise from all positions, only call a raise if they're suited and I'm in position - occasionally 3-bet vs. players with high pfr%
KJo - open raise from LP, never call a raise
KJs - open raise from MP & LP, sometimes call a raise in position
One note... I make exceptions vs. bad players who raise a lot pre-flop and spew post-flop, and will call with all of these hands in position more frequently.
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Do you play FR?
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This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gingerwizard
Do you play FR?
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I did almost exclusively until a couple of weeks ago. My advice is for FR. Pretty similar for 6max though, if you look at 6max as having only MP and LP.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gingerwizard
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
KJ is always a fold preflop in a raised pot unless it goes multiway and then you probably need it to be sooted and your not playing for tp!
KQ and AJ are raises for me in FR but then im happy getting away from them postflop and i have no intention of calling a reraise with them.
If were first into the pot, you have to open with these hands IMO. If we arent then they are auto muck's unless the pot is multiway and they are sooted, but we need to remember why we play them.
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Thats really helpful cheers.
1 more thing. Opening with them: does this include UTG, even with KJo? Seems tight to fold, weak to call and dangerous to raise since we will be OOP in a raised pot with a vunerable hand. |
When you play in bigger games, you'll find people will reraise you more often or just simply raise and not allow you to see flops oop. therfore we cant afford to limp hands in ep we arent going to play big pots with. So mucking KJs maybe weak, buts its right.
Sure, if you mucked in mp2 when folded to id call you weak and say thats wrong, but UTG, sure its weak but its best! 
Positional difficulties against half decent players will more than make up for mucking it preflop.
KJ is one of those 'pretty hands' it looks real cool, but only leads to bad situations postflop that you often cant get away from, that would be no brainers with AJ/AK/KQ type hands. Yah?
this will become more obvious when you play with players who will punish you for playing oop and arent calling your raises with trash like KTo and K8s and calling down with tp
(hope this makes sense?)
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Stagemn
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 195
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All these hands fold to any PFR (reraise 3x PFR if min-raise??? - read dependant)
KQs- raise from all positons except blinds (complete SB/check BB only).
KQo & AJs - raise from MP and auto-fold UTG.
KJs - raise from MP2.
KJo- raise only from late postions.
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,815
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gingerwizard
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
KJ is always a fold preflop in a raised pot unless it goes multiway and then you probably need it to be sooted and your not playing for tp!
KQ and AJ are raises for me in FR but then im happy getting away from them postflop and i have no intention of calling a reraise with them.
If were first into the pot, you have to open with these hands IMO. If we arent then they are auto muck's unless the pot is multiway and they are sooted, but we need to remember why we play them.
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Thats really helpful cheers.
1 more thing. Opening with them: does this include UTG, even with KJo? Seems tight to fold, weak to call and dangerous to raise since we will be OOP in a raised pot with a vunerable hand. |
When you play in bigger games, you'll find people will reraise you more often or just simply raise and not allow you to see flops oop. therfore we cant afford to limp hands in ep we arent going to play big pots with. So mucking KJs maybe weak, buts its right.
Sure, if you mucked in mp2 when folded to id call you weak and say thats wrong, but UTG, sure its weak but its best!
Positional difficulties against half decent players will more than make up for mucking it preflop.
KJ is one of those 'pretty hands' it looks real cool, but only leads to bad situations postflop that you often cant get away from, that would be no brainers with AJ/AK/KQ type hands. Yah?
this will become more obvious when you play with players who will punish you for playing oop and arent calling your raises with trash like KTo and K8s and calling down with tp
(hope this makes sense?) |
It certainly does thank you.
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This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
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