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bhaley66
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07-01-2010, 11:52 PM
Post subject: KK vs. BB 2$nl
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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Villain was 21/12/0.2 over only 33 hands... No other reads. Now obviously this is a small sample, but the aggro factor being so small means he is somewhat a calling station; right?
Hand KdKs Ring BB
After my own analysis I cannot find anything I would change except for maybe a bigger 3-bet pre-flop.
On the flop, I am automatically betting for value. Since he called I put him on flush draw, gutshot draw, Qx, x7, 88+, 33, 77.
Turn: I doubt he continues here with a gutshot, x7, 33, 77, or any pp less than TT.
River: I'm OOP so this sucks, but I think I still have to bet for value, but I think its a b/f.
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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sorry i screwed up on the title, it was supposed to say KK in the BB...
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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Agg factor will take a lot of hands to converge to a reliable value so I wouldn't put much stock in it after 33 hands.
I could tell you what I think about your preflop sizing, but it'll help you more if you explain your reasons for thinking that you need a bigger 3 bet preflop.
Plus that river isn't a b/f it's a shove.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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All bets made on all streets are absolutely terrible.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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what jkds said...3bet 4x the bet so .32 not .12 lol...and the rest of the hand becomes A LOT easier to play...as pre was played, you could probably pot the flop and turn, but at VERY LEAST make it like .45 on the flop and 1.10 on the turn (assuming you went .45 on the flop)
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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I will not analyze anything that was min 3b pre unless you are high.
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NightGizmo
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Flush
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaley66
After my own analysis I cannot find anything I would change except for maybe a bigger 3-bet pre-flop.
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Your 3bet does nothing for you. The pot is .33 when the UTG has to call .12, so he'a already almost getting 3:1. The cutoff has to call .06 in a pot of .45 and and the button has to call .06 to win .51. Those are insane odds that nobody will pass up, and does absolutely nothing to define anybody's range except your own.
Get used to this fact -- when you 3bet, you need to raise to at least 3Xpot. In this case, with a limper, a raiser, and a caller, you should go a little larger so that an early call won't give the other players the right odds to continue with their speculative hands. Plus -- you will be OOP the entire hand, so bigger is better preflop with a premium hand.
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donkfish
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKDS
All bets made on all streets are absolutely terrible.
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Agree 100%. Preflop 3bet is too small. Pop it to 4x the raise in front, if not more. Flop bet is too small. Bet at least 80% of the pot here (or overbet it - its 2NL) to charge for flush draws in a 4way pot. And then a pot-sized bet again here on the turn 9s should be close to getting the money in. River shove is retarded and gets little value from anything you beat.
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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Philly, I understand the reasoning for the flop and turn bets (value), I understand that I should have bet more preflop and I understand why. However why such a specific value of 4x? My reason for posting this hand is all about me trying to learn more about bet sizing, and obviously I don't understand very much of it... Is the reason I should have bet so much more because I need to plan on stacking off? Or is it that whenever I have a good hand pre-flop, I need to just think about value incase I am ahead post flop?
I think that the reason I 3 bet so little pre-flop, was that just a few moments before this, on another table, I 3-bet someone pre-flop w/KK, and was 4-bet shoved, I called, and they showed AA.
I know its not an excuse, and that I should not let this affect my play, but as everyone is, I'm working on it...
newfish; I respect many of your posts, but not so much of others. I definitely know what its like hearing stupid questions, however the whole reason I am posting this is for the seemingly stupid questions to be answered, and blunt criticism to be given... So please do not post things in my threads unless they are meaningful.
Respect,
Brandon
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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NightGizmo, very helpful post...
It sounds like you mean that I need to raise that much more to get out the drawing hands, and only have others call that are hands easier to put a range on because they were able to call with such odds?
Thank you,
Brandon
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donkfish
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 97
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You're 3-betting to .32 (or 4x the previous raise) because you're OOP and dening odds vs the players IP to outflop you. By min 3-betting pre, you're giving everyone odds to call. Playing a 4-way pot OOP isn't much fun, especially with a premium pair.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaley66
I think that the reason I 3 bet so little pre-flop, was that just a few moments before this, on another table, I 3-bet someone pre-flop w/KK, and was 4-bet shoved, I called, and they showed AA.
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If you saw a kid playing jump rope under a ladder, and they bumped their head, you wouldnt tell them to start wearing a helmet when they jump rope. You'd tell them to stop playing under ladders!
Just because something bad happened to you like getting it in with KK vs AA doesnt mean you should stop 3betting. Just try and be more aware of your surroundings and situations so that you will always make the best decisions. Dont restrict yourself to never 3betting like a man ever again just because you bumped your head. Be aware of your situation, then be aware of the most +EV path, then follow that path.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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NightGizmo
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Flush
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaley66
It sounds like you mean that I need to raise that much more to get out the drawing hands, and only have others call that are hands easier to put a range on because they were able to call with such odds?
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It's all about the odds you are laying with your raise. Let's simplify it -- one raiser who made it .08, the pot is .11, and you want to 3bet from the BB.
min-3bet -- you bet .12, the pot is now .23 and the original raiser has to call .04.
3bet 3x the original raise -- that means you have to add .24 on top of the original .08, making it .32 total. That makes the pot .43 and the original raiser is getting a little less than 2:1.
Isn't that a lot better than offering them 4:23 odds (almost 6:1) with a min-raise? Unless he has AA, they do not actually have the right immediate odds to call 2:1, but you will still get a lot of calls. A lot of times, they won't -- oh well, you'll get them next time. And sometimes, they turn up AA -- that's poker, it's standard with 100BB to get it all into the middle with KK unless you know he *never* goes AI preflop with anything less than AA.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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3b way bigger pre, you know why if you've read the posts above.
when you 3-bet appropriately there is nothing wrong with a 1/2 pot c-bet and barrel.
I really don't understand your river bet - name a hand that is going to call here that you beat. Did you realise you were bluffing?
also, good work on posting the hand - read, understand and absorb the comments and you'll get way better at poker. Continue giving your reasoning and you'll improve every aspect of your game.
worthwhile thread imo.
get in irc
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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I appreciate the help, and I am posting my hands, and reading all I can EVERY day to become a better poker player. It is the help from members like yourselves that make it worth while to have a forum like this...
nightgizmo, I definitely understand the reasoning behind pre-flop play much better since your last post. I dont think that I have put much thought into pre-flop play before now. I just always read everywhere I looked that there was specific play, but never understood why; that is why it has not stuck in the past. If I do not have reason, I will not remember...
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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oh and btw daven I have been on IRC a few times, but when I have been on there nobody has said a word... When is the best (most populated) time to be on?
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Not to be mean or anything but i hate the way this hand was played. Op you under bet every street up until the river then you shove all in on a river ace. A far as being scared to bet big on kings because this one time you had kings and lost to aces sure that sucks but frankly it's just part of poker. When you min 3-bet you give the other dude odds to call with any 2 cards and personally i'd rather have my KK get torched by AA then to have it taken out by some crappy 2 pair because i bet like a little girl.
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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I understand all of this much better now littleogre. As far as letting what happened previously influence my play, I know that this should not, and usually doesn't, however it did this go around... I will be sure not to let it next time...
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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wat. Are you saying you got reads from previous hands and think it's bad to use them lol??
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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No, you are waaaayyyy off track, I'm basically talking about short term tilt...
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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wat
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
A far as being scared to bet big on kings because this one time you had kings and lost to aces sure that sucks but frankly it's just part of poker.
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In response to this I wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaley66
As far as letting what happened previously influence my play, I know that this should not, and usually doesn't, however it did this go around... I will be sure not to let it next time...
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I was talking about a previous hand where I got beat. I know this was tilt, and I know that I should not have let that influence the way I played this hand, however it did, and all I can do is analyze what happened and not do it next time...
Understand now that the above posts were sorted through and cleaned up for you? 
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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no not really. If you're tilting and it's *influencing* your play, then why are you betting so small. You're pissed because your good hand lost, so you're letting other people turn their terribad hands into better hands than your kings for liek no cost. If anything you should be betting larger when you're tilted this way?
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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Maybe so, however do you think that when people tilt and let it "influence" their play everyone reacts exactly the same? I was betting so small because I was tilting, maybe thats not how you react to tilt, however, I don't believe that everyone will react the same...
I definitely do not disagree that I should have done it differently, however, I did what I did, and thats the past, so now all I can do is evaluate, and try to correct it for next time...
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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well as long as you're actually thinking even when you tilt you have some reasoning behind your play even if it doesnt make sense
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bhaley66
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: washington
Posts: 150
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Correct, and its the making sense that is tough when tilting. I just need to focus on not tilting, just like everyone else...LOL
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shallam
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 98
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I think you should be raising more PF -- doubling the pot would be perfectly reasonable. You could even go all in. Your flop bet was also smallish - I would aim for 2/3p. More if my PFReR is smallish. There is a flush draw and you could easily be up against AQ. If I'm up against QQ, well then I'm gonna get stacked here.
I would not give any cheap draws.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shallam
I think you should be raising more PF -- doubling the pot would be perfectly reasonable. You could even go all in. Your flop bet was also smallish - I would aim for 2/3p. More if my PFReR is smallish. There is a flush draw and you could easily be up against AQ. If I'm up against QQ, well then I'm gonna get stacked here.
I would not give any cheap draws.
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wat
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Penneywize
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shallam
I think you should be raising more PF -- doubling the pot would be perfectly reasonable. You could even go all in. .
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Yeah, let's force our opponent to play perfectly. What kind of a douchebag wants value out of KK anyway? That's just unfair to other players.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penneywize
Yeah, let's force our opponent to play perfectly. What kind of a douchebag wants value out of KK anyway? That's just unfair to other players.
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Yes but will they player perfectly?
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
Yes but will they player perfectly?
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They won't always play perfect here at 2nl, but if we go all-in they're going to fold out hands that we could have gotten a lot more value from by actualy sizing our raises instead of just jamming cuz we gotz gewt hand
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Raise to .32 preflop, bet 75%+ on all streets.
Don't make reads on people based on 33 hands.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
Raise to .32 preflop, bet 75%+ on all streets.
Don't make reads on people based on 33 hands.
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you can get reads on people over 33 hands if you're paying attention
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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If you're really good, yes.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
If you're really good, yes.
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I don't mean really accurate stats or super accurate ranges, but at 2nl if they get to showdown like ever you can run through the hand again and find a lot of mistakes that they make that you can exploit
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ZwiFT
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Valuebet/fold
Posts: 778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
If you're really good, yes.
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dude you can make reads based on one hand alone, and you dont have to be good to do that you just simply have to look at the hand
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZwiFT
dude you can make reads based on one hand alone, and you dont have to be good to do that you just simply have to look at the hand
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Exactly
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Penneywize
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
Exactly
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Alright then.
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