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Borax
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04-21-2005, 01:45 PM
Post subject: KK vs. AA raise-reraise-reraise question
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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With KK I will reraise any raise preflop. But what if you are reraised again - and a second time? Do you allways move in your stack or do you get careful when you suspect AA? Should you ever lay down your KK if there is no ace on the table?
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SpceManSpif
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10
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Well If someone raises the blind and I reraise him. Then he turns around and reraises me. Then I'm most likly to call and see what the flop is. I'm not going to fold but also I dont want to keep reraising till we are all in. To me reraising and such can get pointless after everyone else folded and its heads up. You kind of know that he isnt going to fold and neither are you. So since your not sitting on AA might as well call, see the flop and go from there.
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EasyT
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo Mamma
Posts: 834
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I agree with the re-raise once idea. See where you're at. He probably re-raised to see where you were at. By rasising a second time you represent the AA, KK, QQ or AK. If he pushes all-in for most of my stack on the second lap, I might lay it down, but otherwise I'll just call and see the flop.
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Les_Worm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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I don't really care how many raises there are. I've seen too many stupid people making stupids plays. If I have KK I am getting all my chips in the middle. If he has AA, thats poker.
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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^^^^
Tourney I agree, I'm curious to hear reaction to this from the better cash game players. SNG/MTT people may re re re raise with PP JJ or better, AK, wild players maybe 10 10 99 AQ. Cash game every time I play a huge pot pre flop with KK it seems like I make a set or lose to AA.
So... suppose it's your first hand at .5/1 (you buyin 100), KK on the button, MP (sitting with 100) raises to 3, you make it 10, he makes it 25. Do you call, move in, fold? What if he moves in right there?
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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AI
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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pvfox
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: manchester
Posts: 14
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as always, it depends on the player. at the lower to middle levels, they're re-raising with QQ, JJ, TT, Ax and worse.
i'll call a big re-raise with KK and if the flop has no ace, i will often go all-in.
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it's been claimed that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards will eventually reproduce the works of shakespeare. now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true.
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SpceManSpif
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
AI
-'rilla
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Like you sig pic.
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Grand_MasterB
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
^^^^
Tourney I agree, I'm curious to hear reaction to this from the better cash game players. SNG/MTT people may re re re raise with PP JJ or better, AK, wild players maybe 10 10 99 AQ. Cash game every time I play a huge pot pre flop with KK it seems like I make a set or lose to AA.
So... suppose it's your first hand at .5/1 (you buyin 100), KK on the button, MP (sitting with 100) raises to 3, you make it 10, he makes it 25. Do you call, move in, fold? What if he moves in right there?
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You have to go AI... i agree with the "too many stupid players doing stupid things argument"... i want to get all my chips in here and if he has AA so be it.
Some people might say once he reraises just call it and see a flop. But what then? you are in the same spot, he may have an A he may not. He might have been pushing KK too or even QQ. I want to take this guess work out and get all my money in preflop with a hand that will be leading 99% of the hands out there.
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Les_Worm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,697
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
^^^^
So... suppose it's your first hand at .5/1 (you buyin 100), KK on the button, MP (sitting with 100) raises to 3, you make it 10, he makes it 25. Do you call, move in, fold? What if he moves in right there?
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I re-reaise all in.
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The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
Phil Ivey Owns You
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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I've only had it happen once that I my reraise was reraised and then reraised again. I pushed in response and both called for their stacks. I was delighted to see my KK up against an overplayed TT and an idiot's QJs. T98 came on the board and QJ took it.
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Wet_DreaMer
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Viridian City!
Posts: 190
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Les_worm
I don't really care how many raises there are. I've seen too many stupid people making stupids plays. If I have KK I am getting all my chips in the middle. If he has AA, thats poker.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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just the other day i had kings, was a minraise before me, i reraised to 8x BB, someone rereaised me to half their stack, i pushed, they folded.
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The Lizard King
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04-22-2005, 05:48 AM
Post subject: Re: KK vs. AA raise-reraise-reraise question
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#14 (permalink)
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 20
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Borax
With KK I will reraise any raise preflop. But what if you are reraised again - and a second time? Do you allways move in your stack or do you get careful when you suspect AA? Should you ever lay down your KK if there is no ace on the table?
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You would be surprised with the hands that people are reraising with preflop. If you reraise and he raises you back, then its a definite AI.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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It depends on how your opponent is capable of playing certain starting hands before the flop.
Earlier, some guy raised preflop and I reraised with A-K. The guy reraised my reraise, and I figured he had Q-Q or J-J (this was a fish table). I pushed all-in figuring there was a very slight chance he'd fold, and a decent chance I would bust him if he called. Basically, I just felt like gambling.
Sure enough, he called instantly with Q-Q even though I was openly representing A-A or K-K.
I think this is an example of how some players overvalue certain starting hands, even in the face of extraordinary preflop strength from their opponents. I would never fold kings before the flop against one of these players, but against a good one, I may consider it.
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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So...again: preflop: oponent 2$ bet-you 5$ raise- he 25$ reraise and you then allways go all in with KK for 50$ 
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The Lizard King
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 20
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Borax
So...again: preflop: oponent 2$ bet-you 5$ raise- he 25$ reraise and you then allways go all in with KK for 50$ |
I definetly would. Everytime.
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TylerDurden
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 22
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I think you should push here, there's a chance you take it down right there, there's also a significant possibility he's an idiot and you have him totally pwned, at least in a SNG. Anyway, do you really mind losing this to AA?
Every single time I've had KK vs AA I've either paid it off for my stack or gotten lucky, and I don't mind a bit given all the times people have turned over QQ/JJ/TT/AK etc.
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TylerDurden
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Estrop
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 207
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I'd push, every time. Only once have I had KK and someone has had AA. 1 in 20 chance of it happening? I'll take the chance.
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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I can't believe some of the posts I read on 2+2 about situations like this "I'd fold KK blahblah"... do they not understand how totally freakin weak that is?
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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SpceManSpif
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10
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I wouldnt fold. But I also dont think I'm going to blow everything I have by going all in and hoping that I catch something, if I truly believe he has AA. If you know the player and are postive your making the correct read than I would call his reraise and see the flop.
To me pushin all in on ahand you believe your alread starting behind is not the smart thing to do.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SpceManSpif
I wouldnt fold. But I also dont think I'm going to blow everything I have by going all in and hoping that I catch something, if I truly believe he has AA. If you know the player and are postive your making the correct read than I would call his reraise and see the flop.
To me pushin all in on ahand you believe your alread starting behind is not the smart thing to do.
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online your not going to have these miracle perfect reads... maybe in a home game with your close friends you can be sure enough times to make the fold profitable.
==========
if i can get my chips in the middle preflop with KK or AA im going to take that option everytime.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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Ugibu674
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 19
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It takes an expert to fold KK preflop. I did it once! Therefore I am an expert...
Actually my freaking table popped up when I was checking my email and I hit fold by accident...
Someone actually held AA on that hand!!!!
So I like to tell people it was my expert laydown... but now you know the truth.
I agree with everyone above about the so many players re-raising and going all in with weak hands.
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If you're a skillful poker player, then you should enter a game expecting to win...You deserve it. It is a crime against nature that those people are fondling your money. They have no right to it. - Mike Caro
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evman150
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Estrop
I'd push, every time. Only once have I had KK and someone has had AA. 1 in 20 chance of it happening? I'll take the chance.
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You obviously don't play a lot of poker if you've had KK vs AA only once.
I once had KK vs AA three times in one day and lost all three. The one time I had AA that day I lost to KK.
Rigged? No, but I sure the hell don't play at PokerRoom anymore. The bad vibes themselves can put you on tilt.
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Light years ahead of the competition.
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spino1i
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 25/50's f'in hard!
Posts: 893
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i am getting to the point now where i only lose half my stack to kk v aa (with me having the kk). I see a flop and use it to determine if they have bullets or something else.
only a fool goes all in with kk on higher levels (100+ nl). I've watched countless people get destacked by this via aa. You should see a flop, and go from there.
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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I find this topic to be interesting because peopole divide into two clear groups. 1) See the flop, and 2) go all in preflop what ever.
Recently I tried out the "see the flop" strategy against a very tight player like this:
I raise a 2$ to 5$ and he reraise to 10$ so I call to see the flop.
The flop gave JT6 rainbow and he bet 15$. Then what? Should I fold because I'm pretty sure he's got AA? Should I call and see the turn also? ...or push now? JJJ and TTT is suddenly also possible.
Seeing the flop is ok if you actually hit something, but if not, then what do you do? It's still pretty hard to lay down KK. In the given example I called to see a 2 on the turn and he moved all in for 25$. I folded my KK and he mucked. My usual play would be to push preflop and I'm not sure that this experiment will change my play with KK in the future. If I had called the all in here I could just as well have pushed preflop like usual.
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spino1i
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 25/50's f'in hard!
Posts: 893
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even when you make the best folds - you still dont get to see the guy's mucked cards.. i think it was pretty clear he had AA.. good fold imo
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spino1i
even when you make the best folds - you still dont get to see the guy's mucked cards.. i think it was pretty clear he had AA.. good fold imo
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Why? QQ makes plays exactly the same way. As would a few other hands. I've seen people even play AJ this way. You'll see a lot of places where you can tell yourself that folding was good because he could have had AA from the way he bet. I expect you're actually wrong a decent portion of the time.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i couldn't disagree more with seeing a flop to determine if they have bullets. preflop, if you push, you're probably getting called by a lot of hands that aren't aa. If you do this, you are ensuring that there is only one hand in the entire world that is ahead of you, and there is a 1 in 20 chance the other guy has it (well, in real life, its much higher, but probably still less than 25%). after the flop, they might've caught a set, they might have queens/jacks/tens and push and you fold to that, they might have tptk and you fold to that, they might have ace king and catch their ace and you lose, they might have ak and continuation bet and you fold. if you think this is how you want to do things go right ahead.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spino1i
only a fool goes all in with kk on higher levels (100+ nl). ... You should see a flop, and go from there.
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You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
You have GOT to be kidding me.You have GOT to be kidding me.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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In the Pacifc 200NL, I had players go over the top of me with all kinds of shit.
I've never laid down KK pre-flop. I'm getting in as many chips as possible and if he's got AA I'm sucking out or paying it off.
I would only consider laying down KK with really deep money (more than 100BB stacks) and a strong read on the other player (at least 500 hands, probably over 1k.)
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spino1i
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 25/50's f'in hard!
Posts: 893
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fine fine dont believe me.. but ive saved about 200$ to date standstilling KK v AA (pretending to have a set to get the AA to stop being so aggressive and then showdowning) and always losing half my stack. And everytime it hasnt been QQ or JJ that i could have made more money off of, because those hands play differently.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
In the Pacifc 200NL, I had players go over the top of me with all kinds of shit.
I've never laid down KK pre-flop. I'm getting in as many chips as possible and if he's got AA I'm sucking out or paying it off.
I would only consider laying down KK with really deep money (more than 100BB stacks) and a strong read on the other player (at least 500 hands, probably over 1k.)
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Yeah thats the one time i regret pushing with kings when we both had 250+ bb stacks.
The way i look at it is, every 1/25 times someone will get aces over your kings in a full ring game and some fish will come over the top of you with qq or something worse more than 1/25 times.
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Borax
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 584
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Well, my first three observed KK hands after this discussion ended like this:
1. Five players call a 1xBB raise from the AA and I raise to 5$ to get some of them out, or take it down preflop. One caller and the AA reraise, so I move all in. The remaining caller folds and AA calls. No change through the table cards and I loose my stack of 50$. It felt like I played it right though, but when he reraised me I was pretty sure he held AA.
2. My KK gets busted my some schmack calling my 4xBB from MP with T4s hitting two pair on the flop. Hard to read a T4 two pair after a preflop raise  I overbet the flop and he call and I loose my stack for pushing on the turn. Probably bad play by me - I know....no AA here, just felt like complaining 
3. I fold my AK to some heavy action preflop where two guys repeat my hand from 1., and again the AA win a 50$ stack.
Maybe it isn't a bad idea to call a big reraise preflop when you suspect AA? I can't decide and think I might try both ways in the time to come.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i will say, twice i was sure someone had AA. Something about the way they raised me. Stacks were 50. I raised to 2 dollars, this person reraised me to 8 dollars... they had been quiet for a while, the room was generally really passive, I absolutely knew he had it. but i pushed anyway and lost. The other time, stack was 100, he raised to 4 dollars, I raised to 20 dollars, he pushed. I knew then too. Fortunately, that time i sucked out 
but, going back, even if i were to get another feeling where I just knew, I don't think i'd fold. Even if they have aces, I'm winning 20% of the time. If they don't have aces, i'm winning 80+% of the time. I'm sure that no matter how positive I am they have aces, my read is wrong at least 30% of the time, or enough to make this a good move.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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With KK and someone reraises me....I'm pushing. I don't give a crap, if you've got bullets then bring them on. I'm either beat or I will suck out on you and laugh in your face about it.
On a side note, though, I have folded KK preflop twice. Both times the other dude showed AA. I could just tell something was up because these players were super tight and hardly ever raised preflop...One of them was directly to my left and as soon as I re-raised big he immediately pushed no-hesitation...If he had "thought about it" I probably would have lost my stack to him.
Those two times I "just knew," but there have been quite a few times where I pushed and lost to AA. That stuff happens, and I'm okay with it.
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ender555
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 647
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by calling and seeing where you're at, you're weakening your hand.
You're giving him a chance to catch. Even though I've had day's where I play KK vs. AA 5x in a row, statistically in the long run it's like less than 1 every 20 times you get kings.
This means that if you are getting re-raised off your re-raise you go all in definitely. you'll win big doing this, where as if you just call and then push on the flop if he folds you're losing more money.
Most people that re-raise a re-raise wont fold to an all in
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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"Anyway, do you really mind losing this to AA?"
Yup! Don't you?
(I'm probably giving away too much of my personality with this response, but hey)
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SpceManSpif
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
"Anyway, do you really mind losing this to AA?"
Yup! Don't you?
(I'm probably giving away too much of my personality with this response, but hey)
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I agree with you on that one. I do mind loosing to AA. Shoot I mind losing period to anything. I want to keep my money and take the other guys moeny.
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