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pokerlearner
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01-26-2007, 05:04 PM
Post subject: KK vs AA. Anyone else getting stacked here on this flop?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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I feel sick today  . I have been playing NL only like 5 months so far and had my biggest loss (on a single hand). I have had 5-6 players comment saying that there was nothing I could do. I have had 1 player (my mentor, who is an awesome player) say that there is no way he stacks off on that flop.
I did play it horribly but just wanted to make sure. What say you FTR.
Game: 300$ NL (2-5 blinds)
Villain is decent, has been catching numerous flops and has a huge stack (about 2000$). Hero has 700$ behind.
Hero is in BB with KK (suit not important in this hand). Villain is MP1
Preflop: UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, Villain raises to 15, CO calls 15, Hero raises to 75, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Villain reraises to 175,
Hero calls.
Hero thinking: Does he has AA here. should i go all in. I cant possibly go all in because he only calls with AA there..f*** it. I call...
Flop: 4c-7d-10s
Hero thinks...awesome flop....get it in...
Hero checks, Villain bets 125, Hero reraises all in, Villain insta calls.
Horrible play by me.
5-6 other players comments:
Nothing you can do here. one of them hands you go broke with...blah blah
My Mentor:
When you raised big to 75 and he reraises you to 175, ONLY 1 HAND is going to do that. Now you can call the 100 more to try to hit your set or check fold the flop. You CANNOT stack off given that kinda information in preflop. Bells should be ringing in your head when your 75$ reraise gets reraised to a 100$ more.
What would most of you have done ? I feel so sick and disgusted at my immature play.[/b]
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seoul_child1
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 176
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Your mentor is correct, when u raised it to 75 and villain re-pops it, you definately have to proceed with absolute caution. I call the pre-flop 3-bet and hope to spike a very favorable flop, if not it's a much easier fold then u think!
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Dave Davis
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 100
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It is not such an easy fold. You have to ask yourself a question: Would he do that with QQ? If the answer is yes, I think you can call.
Why would this be an easy fold? However, I wasn't in the hand so I can tell but you gotta go with your instincts here. But it is certainly not such a bad play as your mentor said.
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Seasider
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bangor UK
Posts: 563
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dave Davis
It is not such an easy fold. You have to ask yourself a question: Do you feel lucky punk, well do ya? If the answer is yes, I think you can call.
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FYP, looks like AA or maby 10 10 to me...
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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Not everybody plays AA the same way and some do this with other hands because they're donks. You have to know your opponent. What type of reads do you have on villain? Is he tight/loose? Even with this information, I can't fault you for going busto here.
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pokerlearner
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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if the flop was like this
A-x-x
Q-J-x
Q-10-x
I WOULD NOT go busto here, because i can make laydowns. Its not only 1 hand that beats me on that flop but multiple hands....however with that flop i just took a chance that he didint have AA. Also guys with 2000 stacks play more reckless...all these led me to talk myself into stacking off.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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this is anything but an easy fold, but anytime villain 4-bets that light you have to weight AA very high in his range. Id like to think i would dump it on that flop, but i very seldom would.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Dave Davis
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 100
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Sprayed you are right it depends on villain. It is not such a bad mistake. Only a maniac would come over the top with TT, Seasider.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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i never fold here without reads.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I don't know what ego trip your Mentor is on, but he is wrong. You played it fine.
Here are my thoughts:
1. He's obviously not a ubertighty because someone like that wouldn't have such a huge stack.
2. The flop was one of the best you could've hoped for.
3.You have no tells or reads.
4. Your stack isn't really big, it's like 140BB.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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If you call pre-flop, you have to play 10-high flop.
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DonkDonk
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 54
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I play KK like this: I 3-bet any pf raise, If I get 4 betted I fold (unless he has been way out of line). Dump the hand and go on. I have layed down KK to AA 5x in my past 150k hands or so (villian ended up showing in those cases).
A good way to get villian to show his AA, when you lay down KK is to type in the chat bar "laying down KK".
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The flop, turn and river can change everything. It is important to remain objective and remember that the overall goal is to win, not win this specific hand
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seoul_child1
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 176
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THIS IS AN EASY FOLD... even though villain is the big stack and loose i am presuming, he has already pegged you as a TAGG. Hence for him to 3-bet You, a TAGG he is only doing this with KK or better, QQ would call imo, if not this is an UBER AGGRESSIVE table one which you should not be playing at! the swings would be too much!
**BUT as played, with that flop and first to act, i would push first and hope he doesn't call...
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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without a read, lead the flop. lead turn if called. all in if raised
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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one of those hands you really have to have a great read on villain TO MAKE THE LAYDOWN. i wouldn't ever be surprised to see the rockets, though. and i wouldnt feel ashamed of the way the hand went.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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jackvance
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01-27-2007, 03:52 PM
Post subject: Re: KK vs AA. Anyone else getting stacked here on this flop?
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#16 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerlearner
My Mentor:
When you raised big to 75 and he reraises you to 175, ONLY 1 HAND is going to do that.
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I think 2 hands can do that.. AA and KK. But since you already have the kings..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Only call preflop with KK if you are:
1) slowplaying against JJ or QQ
2) set set set set
If you are not doing either of these two things, fold or re raise preflop.
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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If you're going to push then push preflop (I think Rounders taught us that). Otherwise set it or forget it. What do you think he's raising with AK?AQ? QQ?....
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Xioustic
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 322
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If I'm calling his reraise preflop I'm definately pushing this flop. I don't care who the hell he is.
I may have pushed this preflop even.
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sejje
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02-02-2007, 09:27 AM
Post subject: Re: KK vs AA. Anyone else getting stacked here on this flop?
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#20 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerlearner
My Mentor:
When you raised big to 75 and he reraises you to 175, ONLY 1 HAND is going to do that. Now you can call the 100 more to try to hit your set or check fold the flop.
[/b]
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If you're certain he has aces, you can't call 100 more to try and set.
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Perrygarl
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02-02-2007, 09:48 PM
Post subject: It's gonna happen
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#21 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Worthing
Posts: 50
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Sure, he could have done it with A-A, but he could have done it with Q-Q-, J-J, it could of been a bluff. We have this idea that all professional players can instantly tell when their K-K is no good, but there are many reasons why that player could of gone all-in, theres even possibility of top pair and bluffs. There are going to be times when going broke, is the only option.
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Mr Inconsistency....that is moi!!!!!
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Numbr2intheWorld
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02-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Post subject: Re: KK vs AA. Anyone else getting stacked here on this flop?
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#22 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerlearner
Game: 300$ NL (2-5 blinds)
Villain is decent, has been catching numerous flops and has a huge stack (about 2000$). Hero has 700$ behind.
Hero is in BB with KK (suit not important in this hand). Villain is MP1
Preflop: UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, Villain raises to 15, CO calls 15, Hero raises to 75, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Villain reraises to 175,
Hero calls.
Flop: 4c-7d-10s
Hero thinks...awesome flop....get it in...
Hero checks, Villain bets 125, Hero reraises all in, Villain insta calls.
good play by me
My Mentor: Wow, you are retarded. I lay that down EVERYTIME, BECAUSE I'M AN INCREDIBLE HAND READER. YOU SUCK, LOLZ, YOU'LL NEVER PLAY AS HIGH STAKES AS ME. BTW, I'M GAY.
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FYP
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Ok seriously now.
Something you should consider is that you did reraise huge. To some people, that looks more like QQ-TT than KK or AA.
If you were going to take this hand all the way (which i would), you played it absolutely perfectly. Good job.
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Nova442
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
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Your mentor is a spewmonkey if he suggested that setmining/cf is a viable line. You aren't deep enough to setmine and it's an automatic -ev play to do so. Folding is at least neutral 0 ev and you should make your decision preflop.
It's all up to your read on his range of 4 bet. If it really can't be anything but KK-AA you can lay it down preflop. If he's a solid player capable of 4betting AK, or QQ-TT like this then you can't get away. C/r allin is the best line for getting your money in because he's going to make a bet at the pot almost every single time whether it's QQ or AK, or AA. You won't fold your KK except on terrible boards. This board of rainbow blanks is easy allin if you called preflop. Well played, bad luck, and sorry about the cooler KK vs. AA.
EDIT: cleaned up the post a bit.
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"Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of War."
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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anybody who says you played this terrible is wrong. at worst you played sorta bad, and probably played it ok, but definitely not terrible.
and I don't know why your mentor didn't bring up anything about reads. Don't get me wrong, the betting pattern of a small raise then small 4bet looks a lot like aces, but for example, if he thinks you could be reraising light (or mostly with the intent to fold to a 4bet), he might be 4betting AK/QQ "for info" or to semi bluff, so in that spot (which is pretty common) it's worth it to ride KK out like that.
but without that read, or if he sees you as someone that won't reraise without QQ or better, folding pre flop is probably slightly better. either way, not a big mistake.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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nh gg wp standard
pushing is fine as well
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DubRod
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 112
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It all depends on Villain's table image. I think I 3bet preflop and fold to a push if he is a TIGHT player. Plus I dont like being OOP.
As played, I call the flop with caution and try to see showdown as cheap as possible.
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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i think it's all about the reads. i know a whole group of players that would make this play with QQ and AK for sure (although they would probably push allin). I can see friends of mine making this play with TT and JJ and AQ too.
There are a load of players out there that will go allin pf with a lot of hands. Last night I saw this hand:
AKs vs AJo (deep) vs Q8o (short) vs 44 (deep) vs another weak hand (short). all the hands were allin pf. At this place I'm never folding KK pf in a million years and I move allin pf every single time no matter how they play it.
It seems that the quality of play is much better in the US and other parts of the UK and the world.
This hand is all about reads. If you know nothing at all about your opponent and he's just some random internet player at lower stakes - then you have to call.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nova442
Your mentor is a spewmonkey if he suggested that setmining/cf is a viable line. You aren't deep enough to setmine and it's an automatic -ev play to do so. Folding is at least neutral 0 ev and you should make your decision preflop.
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why isn't setming/cf a viable line. you need to call $100 more and if you hit your set you're going to win a $1400 pot.
Quote:
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THIS IS AN EASY FOLD... even though villain is the big stack and loose i am presuming, he has already pegged you as a TAGG. Hence for him to 3-bet You, a TAGG he is only doing this with KK or better, QQ would call imo, if not this is an UBER AGGRESSIVE table one which you should not be playing at! the swings would be too much!
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why would you not want to be playing at this table? if players are making loose plays that's good for you. variance will not be too much if you're properly bankrolled.
Quote:
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Something you should consider is that you did reraise huge. To some people, that looks more like QQ-TT than KK or AA.
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He made a standard sized reraise. It wasn't huge at all. Anything less and you're betting too little.
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Nova442
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 43
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The reason setmining is not a viable line is Hero has 625 left with 100 to call. With the money in the pot it's razor thin *if Hero autostacks villain every time for the full stack when he hits*. Which he won't of course. Sometimes the flop will come bad, sometimes he'll get outflopped, outdrawn, etc.
As I said folding to the 4 bet would be neutral there but setmining would actually be worse than folding it would be giving away money. I can't believe that a person who is trying to teach another how to play would even suggest setmining here. It's O_O crazy.
Also a 100 raise over a 75 raise is indeed a smallish raise one that could be interpreted as "I have a monster plzzzzz call!" A potsize raise here is I think 240 or so which gives hero 330:165 or 2:1 if I did the math right.
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"Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of War."
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miw210
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 25
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Like everyone said, the most important thing is how you read your villain. If he's been playing solidly like you said, rockets should definitely be at the top your list.
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parky
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Two Pair
Join Date: May 2006
Location: milwaukee
Posts: 40
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I think it all depends on a great read. I know I would go all in with that flop against just about anyone except for a real tight player that only raises AA or KK. I would figure to lose this bet about 1 out of three times which I read somewhere else on this board and I think is about right in my experience.
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nova442
The reason setmining is not a viable line is Hero has 625 left with 100 to call. With the money in the pot it's razor thin *if Hero autostacks villain every time for the full stack when he hits*. Which he won't of course. Sometimes the flop will come bad, sometimes he'll get outflopped, outdrawn, etc.
As I said folding to the 4 bet would be neutral there but setmining would actually be worse than folding it would be giving away money. I can't believe that a person who is trying to teach another how to play would even suggest setmining here. It's O_O crazy.
Also a 100 raise over a 75 raise is indeed a smallish raise one that could be interpreted as "I have a monster plzzzzz call!" A potsize raise here is I think 240 or so which gives hero 330:165 or 2:1 if I did the math right.
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he has 600 left. if he hits his set he wins 525 + 350 (the money in the pot). plus a few blinds or so. he wins approx. $900. that's 9 to 1. i think he stacks every single time he hits his K if his opponent has AA. he gets stacked though when bot players flop sets. so it's not such a bad play is it?
seeing as you flop a set 12% of the time. 7 to 1 odds required. 8 to 1 because of set over set.
anyway, i agree with you now that it's not such a great idea going for the set - but is it actually worse than folding? it's at least close
i agree that because of the small raise, it seems that his opponent is crying for a call.
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Fjaman
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02-08-2007, 05:30 PM
Post subject: Come on...
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#33 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 176
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Of course you push here no question about it, if yo lay it down in theese types of situation it will take away a large % of your winnings, a more dangerous situation is if you would have raised KK and got smooth called layed out a pot bet on flop and got insta raised all in then i would think long and hard on a set...
In this case push,push push and live with the results
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