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littleogre
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11-06-2008, 07:06 AM
Post subject: KK versus super tight player
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok we have a 100bb stack and raise 4xbb in ep with KK. A nit who only 3-bets aces and kings shoves. Do we call or fold ?
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No such players exist.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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well if we know he only 3 bets aces and kings, why would we call?
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JinxT4
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No such players exist.
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Pretty sure this is false.
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[04:18] <+Bbickes> do u has teh agoraphobia?
[04:18] <+fat> im agressive yes
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No such players exist.
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Pretty sure this is false. |
maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make
unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No such players exist.
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Pretty sure this is false. |
maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make
unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe |
you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No such players exist.
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Pretty sure this is false. |
maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make
unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe |
you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play |
what makes you so certain he only 3bets KK/AA then? i'm interested in how you've come to this conclusion about his playing style
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No such players exist.
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Pretty sure this is false. |
maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make
unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe |
you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play |
what makes you so certain he only 3bets KK/AA then? i'm interested in how you've come to this conclusion about his playing style |
well a 3-bet percentage of <1 for starters
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No such players exist.
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Pretty sure this is false. |
maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make
unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe |
you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play |
what makes you so certain he only 3bets KK/AA then? i'm interested in how you've come to this conclusion about his playing style |
well a 3-bet percentage of <1 for starters |
he might still 3b QQ+ and just not get that many high pairs over the however many hundred hands you have on him
for this stat to be accurate, you probably need at least 2K hands with him 3betting less than half of a percent
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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First of all, Quit fking quoting each other 1000 tymes. 
Second of all, According to my latest QandA thread, sure you can fold KK preflop.
NOT. Don't fold, go AI You are chopping or loosing plenty. I know it doesn't seem to make sense, but do it. I'm sure others will chime in and give you good solid reasoning, but trust me.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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super easy fold given that he definitly has KK+.
Its not a very likely situation though. A far more likely situation is a nit who probably 3 bets more than AA/KK 3 betting to say 12bb and then 5bet shoving when he almost certainly has KK+. At this point we are getting massive pot odds and we still arent 100% sure he has KK+ so it usually becomes a call.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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a500lbgorilla
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11-06-2008, 11:00 AM
Post subject: Re: KK versus super tight player
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#12 (permalink)
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Ok we have a 100bb stack and raise 4xbb in ep with KK. A nit who only 3-bets aces and kings shoves. Do we call or fold ?
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Hand 0: 22.618% 15.59% 07.03% 11209632 5056266.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 77.382% 70.35% 07.03% 50594604 5056266.00 { KK+ }
Pot is 105.5 bbs and it's 96 to call. We need 3:1. Fold.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
No such players exist.
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Pretty sure this is false. |
maybe so, but how can you get such a sure fire read that he only raises KK/AA? i think that's the point iopq was trying to make
unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe |
you do not need 50k hands on a player to understand how they play |
Crucial point. Stupid stat huds.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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JinxT4
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
unless you had like a 50k hand database on him and he 3bets only 0.9% of hands, then maybe
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You don't need anywhere close to 50k hands. A few k hands should be enough to get a somewhat decent 3b%.
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[04:18] <+Bbickes> do u has teh agoraphobia?
[04:18] <+fat> im agressive yes
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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what is the beginner's forum coming to?
OP, why did you ask this question, when the answer is painfully obvious. If he has either AA/KK and you kill 5/6 KK combinations it looks pretty much like the easiest fold ever.
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Holy shit. This is DEFF. the first time I've EVER! seen FTR BC say fold KK preflop at the micro's EVER, even when others say "omfg this guy is a super nit, can I fold?" All you hear is "OMFG NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"
this is pretty ground breaking to me.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I can't freaking believe I'm the first one.
What's the sample size?
What do these stats mean over a sample of 10, 100, 1k hands?
How has he been playing at this table so far. What was the last hand he was involved in?
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wellrounded08
Holy shit. This is DEFF. the first time I've EVER! seen FTR BC say fold KK preflop at the micro's EVER, even when others say "omfg this guy is a super nit, can I fold?" All you hear is "OMFG NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"
this is pretty ground breaking to me.
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lol that's not what anyone said at all
everyone is saying, if you have KK and you know he has KK+, you should fold.
however, since you never can know, don't fold KK when someone shoves at the micros.
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Get your own badge! Click profile at the top and FTR Badge from the left nav.
"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wellrounded08
Holy shit. This is DEFF. the first time I've EVER! seen FTR BC say fold KK preflop at the micro's EVER, even when others say "omfg this guy is a super nit, can I fold?" All you hear is "OMFG NO NO NO NO NO NO NO"
this is pretty ground breaking to me.
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lol that's not what anyone said at all
everyone is saying, if you have KK and you know he has KK+, you should fold.
however, since you never can know, don't fold KK when someone shoves at the micros. |
So... I said that everyone said you should NEVER fold KK preflop. And you said "that's not what they said at all"
Then you said you should NEVER fold KK preflop.
I"m most deff. confused here. EDIT: Actually, I'm not. Everyone(before this thread) said you should NEVER fold KK pre, and then you said you should NEVER fold KK pre. I'm track'n.
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
super easy fold given that he definitly has KK+.
Its not a very likely situation though. A far more likely situation is a nit who probably 3 bets more than AA/KK 3 betting to say 12bb and then 5bet shoving when he almost certainly has KK+. At this point we are getting massive pot odds and we still arent 100% sure he has KK+ so it usually becomes a call.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
I can't freaking believe I'm the first one.
What's the sample size?
What do these stats mean over a sample of 10, 100, 1k hands?
How has he been playing at this table so far. What was the last hand he was involved in?
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There are no stats. We have a magic hat and know he has KK+.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Oh, ok.
I did not know that.
Anyway. Still... good exercise to figure out at which sample size you can say with some confidence that he's only 3-betting AA, KK. The two crucial factors are: how often does one get AA or KK, and how often does he get a chance to 3-bet them. - The second part is trickier - maybe PT can help, otherwise just count it out. Consider position.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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And people say I make fucked up threads.
Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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DaddyDeez
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: missoula, MT
Posts: 113
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lol wtf is this...
lets talk about redzill4's post: i think id beat the shit out of her, and have fun. thoughts?
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I post nonconstructive piss
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i love hitting women
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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He's got AA, I still ship. I run hot. If he's got KK I'll make flush, come on guys where's ur in gamb00l.
Hitting women is only sexy when you're Arnold Schwarzenegger.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by oskar
I can't freaking believe I'm the first one.
What's the sample size?
What do these stats mean over a sample of 10, 100, 1k hands?
How has he been playing at this table so far. What was the last hand he was involved in?
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There are no stats. We have a magic hat and know he has KK+. |
i guess you have never heard of poker tracker or hem. they do this amazing thing that lets you know how often a player 3 bets preflop. Word of advise if you go with pt be sure to get pt3.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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oh and to fold kk pf i would need atlesst 1k hands on a player then my KK would have to be behind his 3-betting range
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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this is kinda off subject but at micro stakes i'm not sure that we aren't better of just shoving with kings versus a raise. villans that raise pf will cal our shove with such a wide range.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
And people say I make fucked up threads.
Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.
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i already know how i was just curious what kinda answers i would get. Judging by the replies we have a couple people here that do not know how to use pokerstove nor have they ever heard of pt3 or hem
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
And people say I make fucked up threads.
Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.
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i already know how i was just curious what kinda answers i would get. Judging by the replies we have a couple people here that do not know how to use pokerstove nor have they ever heard of pt3 or hem |
What's really retarded about this scenario, is that it's true if villain range was DEFFINATELY KK+ It's LOL ezfold er w/e, but none of the regs that usually say don't fold KK pre, haven't tried to explain to the beginners here in the forum that villains range at micro's ISN'T KK+. Maybe they have changed their opinions of late. So Basicly by NOT mentioning anything about villains ACTUAL range at the micro's, then it's ok to fold KK pre to a super tight player according to Spenda,Spoon, and w/e other regs said to fold.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wellrounded08
Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
And people say I make fucked up threads.
Easy fold. Learn to use PokerStove.
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i already know how i was just curious what kinda answers i would get. Judging by the replies we have a couple people here that do not know how to use pokerstove nor have they ever heard of pt3 or hem |
What's really retarded about this scenario, is that it's true if villain range was DEFFINATELY KK+ It's LOL ezfold er w/e, but none of the regs that usually say don't fold KK pre, haven't tried to explain to the beginners here in the forum that villains range at micro's ISN'T KK+. Maybe they have changed their opinions of late. So Basicly by NOT mentioning anything about villains ACTUAL range at the micro's, then it's ok to fold KK pre to a super tight player according to Spenda,Spoon, and w/e other regs said to fold. |
i have 2534 hands on one paticular villan his preflop 3bet % is less then 1
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AdamThePirate
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
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I don't get the problem here.
If it's obvious he has KK+ then fold. If not, ship it!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Take it Doyle, take it!
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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i must say i'm shocked that this topic is still going.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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I'm shocked at how bad the topic was.
Mcat Theorem Strikes Again!!!
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overflow
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Flush
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Mcat theorum?
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vaks
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Flush
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in before wat
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flomo
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Full House
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fold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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caddie444
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: constantly UTG
Posts: 723
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The answer is to push all in
because we're never supposed to fold King's pre
Even if we know for a fact he holds either King's or Aces
This post makes total sense
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Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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take you r pants off
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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this post had atleast 2 people that said call so they got knowledge if nothing else
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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oh jesus. pokerstove is a free program.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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thread is fine, noob bashing isn't. Obv just higher stakes players running bad.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wellrounded08
So Basicly by NOT mentioning anything about villains ACTUAL range at the micro's, then it's ok to fold KK pre to a super tight player according to Spenda,Spoon, and w/e other regs said to fold.
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just stop please. you are putting words in ppl's mouths. i dunno how you think that ppl saying to fold KK in the OP's scenario = fold KK preflop to tight players at micros always. i'm pretty sure no one else in this thread came to that conclusion so just stop. this really isn't that complicated.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
i guess you have never heard of poker tracker or hem. they do this amazing thing that lets you know how often a player 3 bets preflop. Word of advise if you go with pt be sure to get pt3. |
I have pokertracker 
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Jovar
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 20
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I'd never fold KK pf, just consider how many donks move in with TT+ or even AQ/AK. At some tables it is often very profitable to just push yourself with the kings or aces if there has been a raise before you. I once got called AI pf by three players, QQ, 77 and AQs. Of course the guy with 77 sucked out and flopped quads, but that's not the point here...
About his stats, how can one possibly know exactly which hands someone goes all in preflop with? Which program do you use?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jovar
I'd never fold KK pf, just consider how many donks move in with TT+ or even AQ/AK. At some tables it is often very profitable to just push yourself with the kings or aces if there has been a raise before you. I once got called AI pf by three players, QQ, 77 and AQs. Of course the guy with 77 sucked out and flopped quads, but that's not the point here...
About his stats, how can one possibly know exactly which hands someone goes all in preflop with? Which program do you use?
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Re-read the OP, then read everyone else's comments, and I hope you change your mind here.
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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I don't think there's anything left to add here.
{locked}
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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