KK v.s. 45o

**WeldPhaser** · 06-17-2012 02:40 AM

Here Is a hand from today, I only have 56 hands v.s. villain,vpip:25 pfr:23 but about 10 hands back he 4bet shoved AA v.s. Hi-jack. So when he flats me pre-flop I'm taking QQ-AA out of his range. Also villain is surely tilted here from being sucked out w/ his A's.

I decide to donk the flop for tilt value here also. good (y/n)?

Is my 3bet on flop too excessive? On these hands when I know I'm getting it all in I feel like I'm not making the best moves...

The other question I have is my read on his range here. I knew he was on tilt, But still think he is calling a 3bet w/ 88-JJ AT-AQ KQ he may have been 4 bet shoving w/ any of those hands. He now has 36% equity on flop and I'm giving him 2.5 to1 odds to call. He's almost right in calling after that 3bet isn't he?

I wonder if he's folding to my 3bet on flop without open ender. In that case my flop play seems ridiculous.....

Revolution Gaming Network - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $7.29
Hero (SB): $4.18
BB: $4.25
UTG: $3.74
MP: $8.92
CO: $5.47

Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has K

K

fold, fold, CO raises to $0.09, fold, Hero raises to $0.26, fold, CO calls $0.17

Flop: ($0.56, 2 players) 6

Q

3

Hero bets $0.38, CO raises to $0.88, Hero raises to $2.43, CO calls $1.55

Turn: ($5.42, 2 players) 6

Hero raises to $1.49 and is all-in, CO calls $1.49

River: ($8.40, 2 players) 4

[spoil]Hero shows K

K

(Two Pair, Kings and Sixes) (Pre 82%, Flop 66%, Turn 82%)
CO shows 4

5

(Two Pair, Sixes and Fours) (Pre 18%, Flop 34%, Turn 18%)
Hero wins $7.84
[/spoil]

**bikes** · 06-17-2012 02:50 AM

4nl. trying to get into the head of these people is insanity.

**BorisTheSpider** · 06-17-2012 03:01 AM

Bet a little bigger on the flop, like $0.45 to $0.50, and jam over his raise. I guess it's OK as played, but since you leave so little behind and hence are never folding after raising the flop, you might as well just jam.

**WeldPhaser** · 06-17-2012 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Bet a little bigger on the flop, like $0.45 to $0.50, and jam over his raise. I guess it's OK as played, but since you leave so little behind and hence are never folding after raising the flop, you might as well just jam.

Right, but should I be Jamming this flop? or maybe just tacking on smaller bets street to street?

how would you have played this one spider given the info on this fella...

**WeldPhaser** · 06-17-2012 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by bikes

4nl. trying to get into the head of these people is insanity.

I hope beating 4nl doesn't make me a worse player. On this hand all the ranging I did on the dude is out the window, and I made a bad read....lol

**bikes** · 06-17-2012 04:15 AM

beating 4nl does not make you a worse player at all

**supa** · 06-17-2012 05:02 AM

Drunk so just posting fyi. We have initiative so we aren't donking flop. Range is not a verb. Hand is played fine. Don't post results, esp in title.

**bjsaust** · 06-17-2012 05:14 AM

His actual hand is irrelevant here. I don't get why you put it in the title and show the results.

Is my 3bet on flop too excessive?

This is a good question to ask. You should be cutting the hand off at this point.

**OngBonga** · 06-17-2012 02:42 PM

Range can be a verb.

**MadMojoMonkey** · 06-17-2012 03:55 PM

It's hard to find a word in the English language that is not a homonym, with several grammatical uses.

Yersterday, I went to the shooting range with my friends. We shot 3 different pistols, with a range of calibers. My groupings were tight with the 9mm at close range, but pretty loose with the .44 at 15 yards.
At the beginning of our session at the rifle range, the instructor told us, "The targets are ranged at 50 yard intervals from 100 to 300 yards. Range each target and estimate windage before each shot."
Oh yeah, I have a gas range in my kitchen.

Beating micro-stakes does not make you a worse player, but it does make you use a limited "tool box" of moves. If you learn to beat the micros, and then think you are a 100% pro who has mastered the game, then you're clearly deluded. Of course there are a lot more skills to learn and use as you move up in the stakes, many of which are not very useful at the micros.

If you are successfully adjusting your game to beat your opponents, then you should be playing a ridiculously exploitable style at 4NL. The thing is that Villains at 4NL wont be adjusting to exploit you, so that's the correct strategy for you. At higher stakes, the Villains will not suck as bad and they will be adjusting to you more, so playing such an obviously exploitable style will not be winning anymore.

**WeldPhaser** · 06-17-2012 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by bjsaust

His actual hand is irrelevant here. I don't get why you put it in the title and show the results.

This is a good question to ask. You should be cutting the hand off at this point.

yeah I got ya I had tried to submit post without a subject, so I just typed the hand in there......

**BorisTheSpider** · 06-17-2012 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by WeldPhaser

Right, but should I be Jamming this flop? or maybe just tacking on smaller bets street to street?

how would you have played this one spider given the info on this fella...

Well it's a super dry flop, so his raise doesn't really represent a wide range of value hands - unless he's raising as a bluff, he can only really have a strong queen or a set. The other possibility at these limits is what he had - a strongish draw that basically he should never raise here because he'll often get blown off his equity and have to fold, or as he actually did call all his money off as a big dog.

At these limits, a strong queen will do this then stack off, so unless I knew he'd only do this with a set I'm not folding, and if I'm not folding then assuming he does have a value hand that he thinks is good, all the money is going to go in by the river anyway.

I guess there aren't many turn cards that you mind, so maybe you just get the money in over multiple streets, but basically once he raises, unless it's a bluff then if he's calling a small reraise, he's also calling a big one, so I prefer just shoving over the flop raise, make him pay for his draw and it also stops him getting away from the hand on a later street.

**daven** · 06-17-2012 08:36 PM

3b a little bit bigger pre
cbet sizing is something that you can spend forever thinking about, vs someone you won't see again at 4nl your sizing is fine on this board. Getting it in vs the raise is also fine cos KQ/KK/QJ/45/JJ are all hands that you beat and they outnumber the rare sets and AA

**supa** · 06-17-2012 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Range can be a verb.

It shouldn't be in this context.

**Shotglass** · 06-19-2012 05:18 AM

hand is played fine - maybe 0.30 pf and cbet ~ 0.50 - 0.55 then jam over top of his flop raise - but whatever

06-17-2012 02:40 AM #1
WeldPhaser View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2012 Posts 328 Location Northeast, PA	KK v.s. 45o Here Is a hand from today, I only have 56 hands v.s. villain,vpip:25 pfr:23 but about 10 hands back he 4bet shoved AA v.s. Hi-jack. So when he flats me pre-flop I'm taking QQ-AA out of his range. Also villain is surely tilted here from being sucked out w/ his A's. I decide to donk the flop for tilt value here also. good (y/n)? Is my 3bet on flop too excessive? On these hands when I know I'm getting it all in I feel like I'm not making the best moves... The other question I have is my read on his range here. I knew he was on tilt, But still think he is calling a 3bet w/ 88-JJ AT-AQ KQ he may have been 4 bet shoving w/ any of those hands. He now has 36% equity on flop and I'm giving him 2.5 to1 odds to call. He's almost right in calling after that 3bet isn't he? I wonder if he's folding to my 3bet on flop without open ender. In that case my flop play seems ridiculous..... Revolution Gaming Network - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players Hand converted by PokerTracker 3 BTN: $7.29 Hero (SB): $4.18 BB: $4.25 UTG: $3.74 MP: $8.92 CO: $5.47 Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04 Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has K K fold, fold, CO raises to $0.09, fold, Hero raises to $0.26, fold, CO calls $0.17 Flop: ($0.56, 2 players) 6 Q 3 Hero bets $0.38, CO raises to $0.88, Hero raises to $2.43, CO calls $1.55 Turn: ($5.42, 2 players) 6 Hero raises to $1.49 and is all-in, CO calls $1.49 River: ($8.40, 2 players) 4 [spoil]Hero shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Sixes) (Pre 82%, Flop 66%, Turn 82%) CO shows 4 5 (Two Pair, Sixes and Fours) (Pre 18%, Flop 34%, Turn 18%) Hero wins $7.84 [/spoil]

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06-17-2012 02:50 AM #2
bikes View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message i roll up Join Date Nov 2007 Posts 6,227 Location house	4nl. trying to get into the head of these people is insanity.

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06-17-2012 03:01 AM #3
BorisTheSpider View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2012 Posts 241 Location UK	Bet a little bigger on the flop, like $0.45 to $0.50, and jam over his raise. I guess it's OK as played, but since you leave so little behind and hence are never folding after raising the flop, you might as well just jam.

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06-17-2012 03:23 AM #4
WeldPhaser View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2012 Posts 328 Location Northeast, PA	right Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider Bet a little bigger on the flop, like $0.45 to $0.50, and jam over his raise. I guess it's OK as played, but since you leave so little behind and hence are never folding after raising the flop, you might as well just jam. Right, but should I be Jamming this flop? or maybe just tacking on smaller bets street to street? how would you have played this one spider given the info on this fella...

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06-17-2012 03:31 AM #5
WeldPhaser View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2012 Posts 328 Location Northeast, PA	I know huh Originally Posted by bikes 4nl. trying to get into the head of these people is insanity. I hope beating 4nl doesn't make me a worse player. On this hand all the ranging I did on the dude is out the window, and I made a bad read....lol

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KK v.s. 45o

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KK v.s. 45o

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06-17-2012 04:15 AM #6
bikes View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message i roll up Join Date Nov 2007 Posts 6,227 Location house	beating 4nl does not make you a worse player at all

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06-17-2012 05:02 AM #7
supa View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2010 Posts 3,340 Location At the bar drinking whisky with an "e"	Drunk so just posting fyi. We have initiative so we aren't donking flop. Range is not a verb. Hand is played fine. Don't post results, esp in title.
	“Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all” Put hero on a goddamn range part II- The 6max years Originally Posted by d0zer start using your brain more and vagina less Originally Posted by kingnat Members who's signature is a humorous quote about his/herself made by someone who is considered a notable member of the FTR community to give themselves a sense of belonging.
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06-17-2012 05:14 AM #8
bjsaust View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2007 Posts 6,282 Location Ballarat, Australia	His actual hand is irrelevant here. I don't get why you put it in the title and show the results. Is my 3bet on flop too excessive? This is a good question to ask. You should be cutting the hand off at this point.
	Last edited by bjsaust; 06-17-2012 at 05:16 AM. Just dipping my toes back in.
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06-17-2012 02:42 PM #9
OngBonga View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2010 Posts 5,311 Location England	Range can be a verb.
	Originally Posted by wufwugy ongies gonna ong
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06-17-2012 03:55 PM #10
MadMojoMonkey View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Apr 2012 Posts 1,231 Location St Louis, MO	It's hard to find a word in the English language that is not a homonym, with several grammatical uses. Yersterday, I went to the shooting range with my friends. We shot 3 different pistols, with a range of calibers. My groupings were tight with the 9mm at close range, but pretty loose with the .44 at 15 yards. At the beginning of our session at the rifle range, the instructor told us, "The targets are ranged at 50 yard intervals from 100 to 300 yards. Range each target and estimate windage before each shot." Oh yeah, I have a gas range in my kitchen. Beating micro-stakes does not make you a worse player, but it does make you use a limited "tool box" of moves. If you learn to beat the micros, and then think you are a 100% pro who has mastered the game, then you're clearly deluded. Of course there are a lot more skills to learn and use as you move up in the stakes, many of which are not very useful at the micros. If you are successfully adjusting your game to beat your opponents, then you should be playing a ridiculously exploitable style at 4NL. The thing is that Villains at 4NL wont be adjusting to exploit you, so that's the correct strategy for you. At higher stakes, the Villains will not suck as bad and they will be adjusting to you more, so playing such an obviously exploitable style will not be winning anymore.

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06-17-2012 07:47 PM #11
WeldPhaser View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2012 Posts 328 Location Northeast, PA	opps Originally Posted by bjsaust His actual hand is irrelevant here. I don't get why you put it in the title and show the results. This is a good question to ask. You should be cutting the hand off at this point. yeah I got ya I had tried to submit post without a subject, so I just typed the hand in there......

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06-17-2012 08:28 PM #12
BorisTheSpider View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2012 Posts 241 Location UK	Originally Posted by WeldPhaser Right, but should I be Jamming this flop? or maybe just tacking on smaller bets street to street? how would you have played this one spider given the info on this fella... Well it's a super dry flop, so his raise doesn't really represent a wide range of value hands - unless he's raising as a bluff, he can only really have a strong queen or a set. The other possibility at these limits is what he had - a strongish draw that basically he should never raise here because he'll often get blown off his equity and have to fold, or as he actually did call all his money off as a big dog. At these limits, a strong queen will do this then stack off, so unless I knew he'd only do this with a set I'm not folding, and if I'm not folding then assuming he does have a value hand that he thinks is good, all the money is going to go in by the river anyway. I guess there aren't many turn cards that you mind, so maybe you just get the money in over multiple streets, but basically once he raises, unless it's a bluff then if he's calling a small reraise, he's also calling a big one, so I prefer just shoving over the flop raise, make him pay for his draw and it also stops him getting away from the hand on a later street.
	Last edited by BorisTheSpider; 06-17-2012 at 08:30 PM.
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06-17-2012 08:36 PM #13
daven View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message trolling freetrollers Join Date Aug 2007 Posts 7,100 Location soaking up ethanol, moving on up	3b a little bit bigger pre cbet sizing is something that you can spend forever thinking about, vs someone you won't see again at 4nl your sizing is fine on this board. Getting it in vs the raise is also fine cos KQ/KK/QJ/45/JJ are all hands that you beat and they outnumber the rare sets and AA
	don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit allin, reload, repeat please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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06-17-2012 09:11 PM #14
supa View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Feb 2010 Posts 3,340 Location At the bar drinking whisky with an "e"	Originally Posted by OngBonga Range can be a verb. It shouldn't be in this context.
	“Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all” Put hero on a goddamn range part II- The 6max years Originally Posted by d0zer start using your brain more and vagina less Originally Posted by kingnat Members who's signature is a humorous quote about his/herself made by someone who is considered a notable member of the FTR community to give themselves a sense of belonging.
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06-19-2012 05:18 AM #15
Shotglass View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2010 Posts 1,745 Location feelin' allright	hand is played fine - maybe 0.30 pf and cbet ~ 0.50 - 0.55 then jam over top of his flop raise - but whatever
	Originally Posted by givememyleg i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
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