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KK preflop at NL5, always aim to shove?
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ClairvoyantX
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10-30-2009, 10:18 AM
Post subject: KK preflop at NL5, always aim to shove?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 32
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So, I'm slightly annoyed and concerned with a situation that keeps coming up. Right now my goal with AA and KK is to shove preflop. This means my normal procedure is to preflop raise to 4/5BB+limpers if it's limped to me. If it's raised I 3bet (how much depends, usually 2.5-3 times the raise).
Now, what happens is that recently I've lost several buyins when villain 4 bet me after that and I shoved for him to show up with AA.
Similar issue happens when there is raiser, 3better in front of me. I usually would aim to shove it all in. Sure, some times I have best hand but facing AA and losing buyins does get me thinking whether I should reevalute that play.
So, the question is. KK, always try to put it all in preflop (not by shoving immediately, but by raising whenever possible), or take on more conservative approach?
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WillburForce
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SW London
Posts: 516
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this question comes up in a bout a 3 month cycle.....
never ever ever ever fold K-K preflop. Full stop.
If you can get it all-in pre-flop with K-K happy days.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Few things to consider. First, it is not always correct to try to get KK allin preflop. However, the likelihood that you should fold it is relatively minuscule. What I mean by it not always being correct to try to get it allin preflop by 3betting/4betting/shoving/etc is pretty simple. Say a pretty tight villain opens UTG, and it folds to us on the BU, and we hold KK. We know that villain is opening like TT+, AK from UTG, therefore KK is ahead of that range, so a call preflop is +EV. However, we also assume that if we 3bet villain will fold TT-QQ, AK, and only continue with KK-AA, which is actually quite common in FR games, moreso than in 6m games. Well because of this, a call is much better than a 3bet preflop. By calling we keep his range wider, and we are ahead of that range. If we 3bet, we narrow his range to a range we are behind, and let him fold hands that are worse than ours, thus he isn't making a mistake. There are other situations as well, where it might be best to flat with KK/AA some % of the time preflop.
Basically though, if I am going to 3bet KK preflop, then no I am not going to be folding. Before I 3bet, it's mandatory to determine how to react if villain 4bets you. If I feel it's profitable to 3bet with KK, then I have already determined that villain is going to continue with a wide enough range (say QQ+, AK) that it's profitable to try to get KK allin preflop, and therefore would not 3bet, then fold to further action.
Also another thing to look at. AA vs. KK hands preflop is not going to affect your winrate all that drastically. The reason is because "everyone is doing it". If the situation was reversed, then it's very likely villain plays the hand the same way trying to get KK allin preflop.
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thedarwinfish
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 31
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Yeah, with 169 possible hole card combinations you are beat preflop by only one of them.
Preflop I'll go all-in with Ks 100 times out of 100. You're going to run into As, no doubt. But you're going to be crushing 99% of the time.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I will gladly put my money in with KK pf 99/100 times. I say 99 because every once in a blue moon you run into this scenario. You are in lp And it gets 4 bet before it gets to you and the dude 4 betting only ever 4 bets KK+
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