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Poker Forum |
Over 1,246,000 Posts! |
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| View Poll Results: You have KK and your 5BB raise is reraised to 15BB | |||
| I fold... (I play $100NL or Higher) |
   
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1 | 0.98% |
| I call... (I play $100NL or Higher) |
  
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15 | 14.71% |
| I re-raise/push... (I play $100NL or Higher) |
  
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18 | 17.65% |
| I fold... (I play $50NL or Less) |
  
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3 | 2.94% |
| I call... (I play $50NL or Less) |
  
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7 | 6.86% |
| I re-raise/push... (I play $50NL or Less) |
  
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58 | 56.86% |
| Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
| Laeelin |
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| Simple Question (really 2 questions in one because of limit diffrences) | ||||
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Play for FREE and practice your game at...Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting! | |||||
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| {This post has been removed} | ||||
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| renegaderob1 |
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| No-brainer for 50NL or less... | ||||
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Roll Rebuilding (for the second time). Current; $1600 from $300 (previous, $2300 from $15)
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| Lexicon Devil |
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Are you guys serious about never laying down cowboys? I've done it once, in $100 NL. Opp has a 5% PFR. - I bet 4x BB (Early Position) - He raises 10x BB - I reraise 25x BB - He reraises 150x BB (All-in) How can you call this? What kind of rational player makes such a deep-stacked push over a 25x reraise without AA or KK (unlikely)? |
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| arkana |
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| Just play it so you maximise your value against QQ,JJ,AK. | ||||
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| Cocco_Bill |
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| Depends on stack sizes and reads. Against the typical tight 100NL full ring player I call here and reevaluate after the flop. If I call QQ might like his hand more and pay me off on a safe flop. If I push many players are probably folding anything but KK AA. | ||||
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| Miffed22001 |
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oh man i keep posting this I cannot see a reason to fold cowboys preflop even if there are like 4 people all in in front of you (well MAYBE then) KK is the second best starting hand in poker. You pay off AA and let anybody else pay you. |
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| johnny_fish |
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| CrunchyNuts |
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None of the above (I play $25NL - party network). There are some opps that I will lay down KK to pre-flop in this situation. These are the guys sittin' there with 5%VP$IP and 1%PFR. When they re-raise me here, I'm muckin'...I'd say 90% of the time they've got bullets - if that low. Only exception there is if I've been bullying them and their stack isn't too big. Against the standard player - yes, push. |
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Up my bankroll - buy Saints Row.
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| xX zorrito Xx |
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defenitely call... the only time i'd lay it down if there are three re-raises before it gets to me... and even then i'd have to have a great read on them to lay this hand down... also if i am the one that raised and then three re-raises are up before it gets to me then it's a no brainner for me... i lay it down... i don't have too much money in this pot to risk for one of them having AA.. |
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| pantherhound |
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i voted for option 3 but it depends. i haven't laid them down preflop yet, but i could forsee a circumstance where I might. |
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| STIdrivr |
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| i dont think you can just call, you gotta raise to see where you stand. if you just call and it comes rags you can still be scared of AA or a set of any of the cards that flopped | ||||
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| cryptyk |
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I dont see how you just call this either. Its pretty safe to assume that AA is going to put you all in at the flop (no matter what comes) anyways, and why let 10-10 to QQ catch a set without paying handsomely for the draw? I say push, especially at sub 100$NL where people will push AI with AQ offsuit preflop. |
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| Lukie |
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Another KK vs AA thread. *Sigh* In this situation, if your opponent can reraise your initial 5xBB raise with anything other then KK or AA, you know what to do. If you have a super-read on somebody that they are ONLY reraising KK/AA (AA since you hold KK), then call for set value and take their stack if there is a K high flop. However, in practice, this generally means a reraise/push. |
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| Lukie |
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| renegaderob1 |
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Roll Rebuilding (for the second time). Current; $1600 from $300 (previous, $2300 from $15)
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| Seabass |
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| Depends on my read.. | ||||
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| renegaderob1 |
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| isnt that FTR for post of the day? As in I agree wholeheartedly... | ||||
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Roll Rebuilding (for the second time). Current; $1600 from $300 (previous, $2300 from $15)
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| TalentedTom |
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| 95% of the time you push this badboy, only call if you are rereaised by a >>>>>very VERY very VERY>>>>> tight player, even then I would most likley pay him off and say "nh" | ||||
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Tom.S
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| a500lbgorilla |
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if you're playing in a game where you cannot safely put your chips in with KK preflop when facing some action FIND A NEW FUCKING GAME -'rilla |
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 Smithers, use the amnesia ray. You mean the revolver, sir? Precisely.
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| Checkways |
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Personally, I voted to re-raise. But I will smooth call sometimes if I'm certain that I'll be heads up. I take some chances, I know. |
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| DaNutsInYoEye |
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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| Greedo017 |
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so, you all don't think that the multi-table rocks change this? you've played with a guy for 100 hands at 100NL, he's played 9% of his hands, 0% pfr, he raises 5, you reraise to 15, he reraises to 30, you seriously are going to push? and i don't buy the table selection argument, even a great table can have rocks. oh and i saw this same type thread over in the sng forum. obviously, i am talking about cash games only. i would never ever fold kk preflop in an sng. i don't really play enough mtt's to know, but i'm doubting i'd ever do it there either. I mean in a cash game, where you have a reasonable number of hands on your opponent, you can see they clearly play consistently, and where it is potentially reasonable to put your opponent on aces with a greater than 50% accuracy (thus making it +EV to fold if this is possible). and, just for my background, i have never folded kk preflop to a raise. I will on occasion call for whatever reason. however, i've thought about it a lot lately, and the more i think about this the more i'm totally failing to come up with a time where i was raised/reraised preflop by a tag player and he didn't have aa. the only times this has happened where my opponent didn't have aces was when he was obviously an idiot. |
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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| Greedo017 |
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i just looked through a bunch of hands, ranging from 25nl to 100nl. 7 times of 220 KK hands was i ever reraised with a non-aces hands. three times they had queens, their vp$ip were 35%, 40%, and 55%. once, they had ak, their vp$ip was 35. once, someone called my ai with aq and 25%/5%, another time someone had aj and 35% vp$ip. The last time, i was reraised to 25xBB by an 18%/8%, i pushed and they folded, so i'm guessing they had qq/ak. This is compared to 9 times that they had aces. the times they had aces varied from tight to loose, mostly tight (below 20% vp$ip). the more i think about this, the more i think that not folding kings to a rock is just stubborn. here's a challenge, can anyone post a hand that is -full ring -have >50 hands on the person -the person is playing less than 20% of hands preflop -the person is raising less than 5% -the person reraises/pushes preflop after you have raised or reraised. and, those definitions are far from a rock, but that's a good starting place and i doubt anyone can even come up with that. |
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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| renegaderob1 |
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| Is there a way on poker tracker to find hands by seeing who went AI preflop or something? Or would I have to manually search to try to find these... | ||||
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Roll Rebuilding (for the second time). Current; $1600 from $300 (previous, $2300 from $15)
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| Greedo017 |
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| if you don't have to look manually i don't know how you do it. i looked manually but used the options they have as best i could to limit the # of hands i was looking at. | ||||
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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| edudlive |
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Quote:
Granted I play mostly 25NL and some 50NL (stars) 6max, but I can only think of maybe 2-3 times I've run into aces with kings out of 20k hands Even from the table "rocks" I find I'm usually get reraised with crap like AJs AQs and AKs/o |
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(16:02:25) Fleece: u think ur liked now?
(16:02:31) Fleece: that u got real life friends (16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends (16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore
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| Greedo017 |
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"Granted I play mostly 25NL and some 50NL (stars) 6max, but I can only think of maybe 2-3 times I've run into aces with kings out of 20k hands Even from the table "rocks" I find I'm usually get reraised with crap like AJs AQs and AKs/o" well, its a little different with 6-max, but even there, you got a hand that demonstrates this? |
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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| STIdrivr |
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| i have never folded KK pre flop, i almost did a few days ago in a Sng when a guy limped during 200 blinds and this guy that was pretty tight passive just min raised the guy, i seriously almost folded but i just hoped he did it with queens but i didnt think so, so i went for it, he had aces. But there have been so many times i didnt fold it and they had Ak suited or queens | ||||
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| Miffed22001 |
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never ever fold KK preflop. Pay AA it does happen but not often! |
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| Greedo017 |
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| for something so obvious that you should never fold, it seems like someone somewhere would have a hand where a rock played back at them without aces. | ||||
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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| Laeelin |
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Quote:
Everything in this post is ONLY talking about at the $100NL+ full ring tables at party poker. 147 times I was given KK Filtered to only show hands that went to showdown leaves 42 hands. Of thoes hands, only 5 times did someone reraise me preflop (and two of them were pushes that I called) I cut a LOT of stuff out of the hands to save space, but this is the core of all 5 of thoes hands. ***1*** Dealt to Laeelin [ Kh Ks ] duinzigt is all-In. Laeelin calls [$74.50]. duinzigt shows [ As, Ad ] two pairs, aces and twos. Laeelin shows [ Kh, Ks ] two pairs, kings and twos. ***2*** Dealt to Laeelin [ Kh Kc ] MATPAT raises [$5]. Laeelin raises [$15]. MATPAT raises [$30]. Laeelin calls [$20]. ** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 6s, 4s ] MATPAT bets [$10]. Laeelin is all-In. MATPAT calls [$68.10]. MATPAT shows [ Ac, As ] a pair of aces. Laeelin doesn't show [ Kh, Kc ] a pair of kings. ***3*** Dealt to Laeelin [ Kh Kd ] Laeelin raises [$5]. BJHoward raises [$8]. Laeelin raises [$20]. BJHoward is all-In. ** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, Qs, 4s ] Laeelin is all-In. BJHoward shows [ 9d, 9h ] two pairs, queens and nines. Laeelin shows [ Kh, Kd ] a full house, Kings full of queens. ***4*** Dealt to Laeelin [ Ks Kd ] Laeelin raises [$4]. StarbrdTack raises [$12]. Loop12 calls [$11.50]. Laeelin calls [$8]. ** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 3s, 6c ] Laeelin bets [$15]. StarbrdTack raises [$55]. Laeelin is all-In. StarbrdTack shows [ Ac, Ad ] a flush, ace high. Laeelin doesn't show [ Ks, Kd ] a pair of kings. ***5*** Dealt to Laeelin [ Ks Kh ] ArielSharon is all-In. Laeelin is all-In. Laeelin shows [ Ks, Kh ] a full house, Kings full of twos. ArielSharon doesn't show [ Ac, Ah ] two pairs, aces and twos. As you can see... 4 out of 5 times I was against AA, and one time it was 99. I dont like reraising or pushing after a RERAISE or push preflop with KK in $100NL+... It's very very rare for a player to reraise preflop without the goods. At low limits, they think that even JJ and AJ are the goods, but in my experence, once you hit $100NL+ people rairly reraise preflop without AA or KK. And neither is a money making hand for you. NOTE: This does not include hands that I was reraise and I reraised back and they folded. Thoes hands didnt make showdown so are not included... Basically: If you reraise a reraise preflop and get called, they probally have AA. If you call a preflop push, they probally have AA. Both are -EV moves IMO. If the raise is small enough I'll call for set value, but if it's a large raise I now fold. (less than $100NL and it's a no brainer push.) These stats are why I left Party Poker and moved to another site with weaker players. Where I play now I can push over a reraise with KK preflop. On party I couldnt. Quote:
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PS: I'd love to be proven wrong here. Please check your historys and post them! .. It's always possible that I just have had really bad luck with my reraised KK hands. |
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| m3laNcholy |
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Up to 100NL I wasnt folding KK preflop no matter what, I was usually pushing. After a little more than 100K hands at 1/2 and lately 2/4, when holding KK, I only got reraised preflop by something else than AA about 20 times. Almost all times that the other guy was a somewhat solid player with a full 100bb stack, he had Aces. So my strategy is something like this. I raise KK 5bb and get re-popped to 15bb - If the other guy is left with a stack of sth like 15bb more I push and pay off AA cause with that stack he's gonna call with anything. - If he has a full stack I call. If I flop a set I look to destack AA or AK, I usually only take a cont bet from QQ or JJ here cause I lose them later on the hand. If the flop is low I raise the flop to see where I stand and usually fold to a raise/push. We have discussed this sitution already : http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=17492 PS. Laeelin we play at the same site, I think I destack you like once a day :P B cool all. |
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| Laeelin |
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I still get to aggressive sometimes :P I'm still way up though 
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| Kiriath |
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I call. if u reraise/push out JJ QQ TT, AK. You want those hands pay of off on a low flop. That being said I call to get my money in later, im not gonna fold unless a ace pops, then MAYBE, but even then, that just makes me think I was reraised by QQ. Basicaly, with KK all my money go in, I just call reraises preflop and get the money in later to suck QQ JJ and TT along. |
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| m3laNcholy |
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And about all that KK pre-flop yada yada... the way to go is this: There is no right thing to do so someone in here can post it and then you do that and win. Study, discuss, argue, ask, gain experience and knowledge and PLAY BETTER POKER. Thats the way to win. B cool. |
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| Fortune 500 |
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I gotta agree with Rippy. I'm paying off aces all day, every day. I'd need a STONE COLD READ. I'm talking like flashing neon signs and God Himself sitting at my table saying he's got aces and if I call he'll strike me dead. And even then, I might call his bluff and report them to the admins for collusion
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| Greedo017 |
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This has been discussed before, but before everyone was just like you can never trust people, never lay it down. But here laeelin and I have shown that through out experience with many thousand hands, we have been reraised with aces at a much much higher rate than any other hand, and that its silly to be getting destacked preflop by a tight player in full ring who is going crazy nuts with his reraises. i'm not going to shove it down your throats any more than this. |
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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| Laeelin |
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had KK and was reraised preflop another 2 times in the last 2 days... Both times it was AA that reraised me. One was against a fishy enough player that I thought she might have a much worse hand, and I lost $200 to stupidly playing the hand just because I knew that she was a bad player. MMT, SnG, 6-Max, <100NL i can see not folding KK preflop... but at 100NL+ full ring, never folding is -EV... |
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| LeFou |
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An MTT situation seems like the ONLY spot where you might fold your kings, i.e. if the next few eliminations mean a big change in payout. Oh, minor correction to ripp: you set about 1 in 4, but sometimes opp sets hisher aces too. Odds of a pair-vs-pair suckout are 4.6 to 1. I'm taking those odds -- plus the odds opp doesn't have the rockets -- in almost any cash game situation. |
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| Pingviini |
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| We have so far had clear statistics that the hands re-raising KK and calling the AI are mostly Aces. I think if you get re-raised you should gather more information by re-reraising him. I will make a raise big enough not to give any other pairs implied odds plus if my re-raise makes him go AI I am pretty sure I am beat and I will fold. He might also call with worse cards, say JJ QQ AK. These guys just arent making any plays with worse card and not that many of them are playing sneaky by just calling with AA. I have found this raising war before the flop to be a +++EV play. | ||||
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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| Laeelin |
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I used to never fold KK preflop, the only reason I stopped is because my stats said it was loseing me monet.... I didnt think "oh, he might have AA and I might lose" I stopped because when I looked at hands that I was re-raised with preflop, over half of them are AA... Something that happened at the table yesterday might explain why this diffrence is... I always raise the same ammount anytime I'm going to raise preflop, and that ammount is almost always larger than the table average... So when most are raiseing say $6-$8 preflop, I'm reraising $10-$14... I had AKs, did a $10 raise, and someone else re-raised me to $76 ... I folded. Then someone in chat asked: "Why did you raise so much with AA?" and he replied "I normally dont, but Laeelin raised to $10" I think thats where the diffrence is coming from... I raise enough preflop that it increases the odds of any reraise being AA enough to make it a -EV call. |
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| Lukie |
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AK is a whole different story which I don't really want to get involved in. It's a difficult hand to play to a reraise. If an A or K flop, QQ generally doesnt pay you off. If an A flops, KK doesn't pay you off. If an A flops, you are paying off AA or any PP that hit a set. Same if the K flops. I read a post that says if you are over 50% sure that the other player has AA, then fold. I would have to disagree. Factor in the times that you are wrong. 1 in 24? times you are dealt KK, on average, the other player will have AA. The action at the table makes it much more likely. Just because someone pushes does not mean they have AA, period. Even a tight player, usually. Also factor in the size of the pot and you have about a 1 in 5 chance of a suckout. Take this example. Hero and Villain both start with 100 BB stacks. Hero has KK, Villain has AA. Hero raises to 4xBB. Villain raises to 14xBB. Hero raises to 40xBB. Villain pushes all-in. Let's also say that 2 people called hero's original 4xBB raise, the blinds folded, and those callers folded to hero's rereraise. There is 10xBB. You have put 40xBB in the pot. Villain's 100BB stack is in the pot. Pot size = 150BB. You have to call 60BB. The above^^ is a very realistic situation. You have to call 60BB into a 150BB pot. You are getting 2.5:1 on your money. KK vs AA is slightly worse then 1:4. Even if your opponent shows you aces, and you still call, it is not even close to being as bad of a call as you would think. Factor in that this kind of play by the villain can easily be made with JJ, QQ, AK, even the very unlikely KK, this is a must call IMO. If stacks are deep and you are playing against a rock, the situation may change. Know this: if you fold KK preflop fearing AA on a regular basis, you are losing money. Easily. |
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| Laeelin |
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| ProZachNation |
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Only time to lay it down would be on the bubble to get a seat into a tournament(ie if you dont play this hand you get in for sure, but if you do and lose you wont get in if you lose.) Also watch out for the QT offsuit reraise apperantally QT will always win according to the table I was at. |
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| BankItDrew |
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| I push in this scenerio because they are most likely going to call. Most of the time when someone re-raises my 5bb raise - they don't have American Airlines! | ||||
 Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?! Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again? Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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| BankItDrew |
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| Latest Poker News | |
| KoRnholio |
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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| According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... | |
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