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KK in Middle position. How bad did I play this?

  
 
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Ron_T
Old 11-23-2004, 04:02 PM     Post subject: KK in Middle position. How bad did I play this? #1 (permalink)  

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I was playing in a S&G 3 table NLH tourny. The blinds are 25-50, and the table has been tight passive. I'm in middle position and get delt KK. There is one caller to my right and I raise to 3x bb. Everyone folds except the origional caller. The flop comes down QT9 rainbow. The caller checks and I bet 200. This is a little more than 1/2 the pot. The caller calls again. The turn is an 8. He checks, I check. The river is another Q. He quickly bets 225 about 1/3 of the pot and I call. He shows KQo and takes the pot. My notes on this guy told me he was playing loose passive. Should I have raised more preflop? Should I have bet the turn? Should I have folded on the river? Before I made the call I thought what hands would I call a preflop raise of 3xbb from early position AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK, AQs. What would a loose player call with AQo, AJs, AJo, ATo, KJs.... and so on. Here is where I think my biggest mistake was. It didn't look good but I called any way. I dont know if I played it differently if the out come would have changed given he had top pair with a good kicker. The only thing I can think of would have been to go all in when the 8 hit the flop. but because Jx made a straight I did not feel that would be such a great move. Please give me your thoughts on this hand.
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Corey
Old 11-23-2004, 04:11 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Ron,

IMO is this: KK mid postion you did the well, of raising 3 x bb. 1 caller. Many players will call just about anything with KQ and thats sad imo. With that flop he checked to you I might have raised more than the original raise of 200 to try to force out his pair of queens. On the turn I would have either gone all in or maybe raised there. Since I believe you though slow playing your KK against this flop and turn would work. Of course he might of called.

KK is a very hand to fold on so the river another queen comes out. Of course he called the raise, raised flop, turn checked, then river he bets out instead of checking again. In this read I would have mucked them, unless you had him covered on chips and went all in on the flop or so.

So you didnt play it that bad just the turn and river only faulty.


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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-23-2004, 04:15 PM #3 (permalink)  
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You had to bet the turn, you can't just assume that if he calls he's on every draw possible. You need to test the waters and see if he hit his gutshot, bet a little harder on the turn, about 2/3 the pot.

River: if he calls the turn bet, you gotta check fold. There are simply too many scare cards out there and it would be hard to assume that he's going to *finally* bet on the river with second pair which is basically all you can beat.

Also: You were wrong to put him on a hand becuase he called the PFR. Just becuase *you* wouldn't call with KQo doesn't mean someone else won't. This is when you need to observe each player and what hands they are willing to call raises with and what hands they willing raise with themselves, then you can narrow down his holding when you're in a hand with him.

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DavSimon
Old 11-23-2004, 04:46 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 The play was fine, the things I owuld have done differently is bet that flop much stronger, a pot sized bet. He may not have laid down top pair with great kicker...but he may have put you on A-Q and been scared of being out kicked. But you play here was definately not bad.
The only real thing I would have done significantly different is bet that turn...strong. With the gutshot hanging out there, you probably could have gottent him to fold - if he played back at you with a reraise you give him credit for the jack and fold...if he just calls you then check/fold on the river.
What 'rilla and I suggested is just a different style of play...I continually have to "force" myself to be aggressive - it is easy to check down a scary flop, but I have won far more than I have lost by simply firing out a strong bet (within reason) on the flop even if it did not help my hand. Give them a reason to fold - if they call then you may be in trouble...if they raise, well then you know where you stand...and may have saved yourself several bets on the other streets.
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Humphrind
Old 11-23-2004, 05:25 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I'm reading the replies, and they all sond about the same. Bet more here, bet more there. I say you did fine.

Sometimes you want to bet more on the flop, but you got what you wanted, 1 caller. That's perfect. On the flop, your bet was fine. However, look at the straight draw. You may want to increase, but what range of hand could he have held onto a J. The turn you could have bet, because if he had a J he would have re-raised. And on the river there were too many cards that would have beat you. But again, his bet was at a price that I think it was something you had to call, at least for information.

But there is another consideration that I don't know. Pot size is important, but so is stack size.
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Hofinger
Old 12-03-2004, 10:51 AM     Post subject: Nothing wrong with that play #6 (permalink)  
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There might be a case for an earlier all in but that's only because you were obviously calling the type of player who had his heart set on calling big bets with KQ, presumably because he/she wrongly believed this to be a top 10 hand! Had you gone all in with this lemming and been called you would have been even less happy about the result! Console yourself that playing the percentages idiot callers lose there chips vastly more often than they win!

There is a very strong case for betting big against this type of player on the turn because if for no other reason than to see how far he will play his hand, for example a re-raise and I would have folded even KK as he would clearly have been representing QQ.

I willl post this in the Hand Clinic section of our website with your permission and see what our members would make of it!
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LeFou
Old 12-03-2004, 03:05 PM     Post subject: Re: KK in Middle position. How bad did I play this? #7 (permalink)  
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This hand was played very badly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron_T
The flop comes down QT9 rainbow. The caller checks and I bet 200. This is a little more than 1/2 the pot. The caller calls again. ...He shows KQo
By him!

-slowplaying TPGK with a gutshot? That's a serious loose-passive mistake. If I were him I would check-raise there.
-at the turn he gives you more free cards to beat him. He does not know you are already beating him. clobbering, in fact: 86% you at this point.

Notifying him of this by going AI on the turn is iffy. He's pretty much slowplaying. That should indicate something better than KK. In this case, because he is weak, it does not.

At the river you probably have to fold, alas. It's not fair -- you waited so long for those Kings!

But the possibilities are basically:
-he was in fact slowplaying the made str8
-he was foolishly slowplaying a pretty-good hand, and river turned it into a Big Dog, with the weakest possibility being 3 of something.
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